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Thread: Your PPE--some things you've changed

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFletcher View Post
    Since no one answered this: copyright is ownership of intellectual property, which includes writing. The poster was alluding to copyright infringement, which is copying a work without permission. Yes, the fines can run into huge numbers, and the chances of you getting fined for copying the NEC or an NFPA book are about as good as winning the Powerball lottery. If you printed and sold 20,000 bootleg copies, sure, but one book, or one section?

    Securing power is almost always required. PPE is not an excuse to work live (not saying you do, but it is done).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P35HRYHFz7c

    taking a 50,000*F plasma shower is not on my "to do" list. as fulthrotl mentioned before, above 40cal the pressure front would probably kill you anyway.

    Most probes are rated to 600V. Fluke and others make ones rated to 1000V. Above that, you'd have to check. There is a vid on youtube of a worker who was killed using a meter rated 600V on 2300V (4160V). As soon as he touched probes line to line, an arc blast ensued via the meter and burned the man to death.
    Actually your'e wrong! I wasn't "alluding" to copyright infringement. You need to read my posts. I was saying I needed to get me a copy of 70e. Furthermore, I know what copyright is, I was being facetious because the reply to my previous posts were targeting me like I'm an invader of the sorts. I just joined the forum to become part of the community, contribute and ask questions when needed. It seems like the vast majority of you which are responding frequently are just in this to argue. I'm not here for such purposes and certainly not here to catch numerous stones on my first post.

    Don't take me the wrong way but its absurd to join a forum, post a genuine first time question and then be stoned to death before I ever gain an answer.

    I never did receive any feedback from most of my question because most of you were too busy throwing stones at me....for whatever reasons, to read and engage in sensible dialogue. I'm sorry but, I wasn't the one that created it. I was only here to engage and learn...that's it...couldn't care less about arguing. Thanks to wbdut, fulthrotl and wtucker and maybe another for providing some good information. thanks.

    I'm still curious about arcs and distances between meter leads --regarding arc probabilities inside panels and disconnects should a transient hit the line when testing with meter. What are your thoughts regarding arc potentials- jumping between exposed portions of meter lead probes when testing? Although I use new silicon fluke TL175 leads with their screw down probe shields, the approach does concern me.

    Yeah I just need to pick me up a copy of 70E for PPE advise and type, given select tasks. I was trying to ascertain and get a feel of what you all are doing for coverage in the commercial and light industrial environments regarding PPE. Such as in the smaller MDPs and 400A panels? Level suit--calories, when working with such panels.

    Thanks

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by amp-here View Post
    Don't take me the wrong way but its absurd to join a forum, post a genuine first time question and then be stoned to death before I ever gain an answer.
    I went back and tried to find stones being tossed. I saw suggestions, many of them pointed, but no real stones.

    Quote Originally Posted by amp-here View Post
    I'm still curious about arcs and distances between meter leads --regarding arc probabilities inside panels and disconnects should a transient hit the line when testing with meter. What are your thoughts regarding arc potentials- jumping between exposed portions of meter lead probes when testing? Although I use new silicon fluke TL175 leads with their screw down probe shields, the approach does concern me.
    Meter leads, by themselves, are not typically considered to be a source of 'arcing probabilities'. Poor lead placement and meter settings are often due to operator error.


    Quote Originally Posted by amp-here View Post
    yeah I just need to pick me up a copy of 70E for PPE advise and type, given select tasks. I was trying to ascertain and get a feel of what you all are doing for coverage in the commercial and light industrial environments regarding PPE. Such as in the smaller MDPs and 400A panels? Level suit--calories, when working with such panels.
    You need to understand NFPA70E and its requirements for establishing Electrically Safe Work Practices for your company. Perform a risk analysis, then select PPE.
    Last edited by jim dungar; 02-02-17 at 09:19 PM. Reason: correct typos
    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    523
    Quote Originally Posted by edward View Post
    In my 2nd semester of electrical program I was burned pretty bad.

    Stay safe and wear your properly "designed for application" PPE.
    In the first year of my apprenticeship (1974) I was working with a journeyman upgrading a service at a motel, for new AC units that were going to be installed in each room. The service was located in the laundry room of the motel. I was mounting some strut on a wall near the existing CT cabinet. The journeyman was working in the existing live 480 volt CT cabinet. He was using the end of his crescent wrench (the hole) on a allen wrench for more torque. It slipped off and went phase to phase. It blew him back in a ball of fire and knocked him to the ground. I was pinned in the corner of the room and could not get to the door without crossing in front of the CT cabinet. The crescent wrench keep bouncing between phases. He got up but was temporarily blinded by the first flash. I yelled at him to stay put. After the wrench burnt itself half, I pushed him out the door and got him to sit on the curb.

    Smoke was starting to come out of the laundry room so I went back in to the laundry room and pushed the laundry carts that were on fire, out into the parking lot. By then the motel staff was there with my journeyman and the fire department was on the way. I stayed with my journeyman until the fire department and ambulance arrived on the scene.

    After it was all said and done, I started shaking and I thought I was going to throw up. It took a while for him to recover and he did returned to work as a journeyman.
    Because of that day, I have so much respect for this unseen force that we call electricity. Safety should be the number one priority for all of us. It certainly is for me.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim dungar View Post
    The blast has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of incident energy. You can be injured by an arc blast without being burned by it. Do not assume a low incident energy fault is 'tolerable' because you have AF PPE.

    I thought incident energy (measured in calories) was a measure of the energy and therefore proportional to the blast.
    Last edited by GoldDigger; 02-23-17 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Fixed QUOTE tag

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kissel View Post
    I thought incident energy (measured in calories) was a measure of the energy and therefore proportional to the blast.
    Arc Blast and Arc Flash are not directly related, therefore they are not proportional. It is not uncommon to find high values of AF incident energy based on faults lasting for several secs before they are cleared, while blast times could be measured in microseconds.
    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by amp-here View Post
    Understanding that a flash analysis must be wrought before a definitive response can be rendered regarding the exact type PPE one wears, what are you commercial electricians wearing to protect yourself? What type/ brands / model coats, coveralls? Say for instance-- and once again, I understand the proximity to transformer, service, size of transformer, etc; must be considered.....but what if you need to test a breaker --how are you removing panel covers on 400a panels and testing current and voltage readings now? With what baseline PPE coverage do you consider worthy of entry -PPE?

    I'm a licensed electrician and just starting my business. Been out of the field for awhile and just trying to gather some insight into makes of clothing, brands and types, which may be recommended by those in the field. Although Im from the old school where I used to place my left hand in my pocket while working in 480 volt panels with a clean-shanked screwdriver in the right..dumb I know. We all were so ill-informed, sad its taken so many burns for someone to say, "Hey!" Anyway, I'm sure there are enough of those stories to go around by member's of this forum for all.

    At anyrate, all of the literature from the NFPA and the sites which sale protective clothing, seemingly make deriving at a choice a daunting task. I'm all for safety and certainly don't mind protecting myself by wearing said gear, just trying to reach a decision on the type which might be a good fit for me and what it is that I will be exposed to.

    Working in commercial and industrial environs, leaves me with no other choice but to remove panel covers and check voltages/ measure currents, etc; Let me clarify, I don't plan on working in larger industrial environments, I'm just a one man show for now. There will be opportunity to work in small scale industrial environments for there are a lot of woodworking and machine shops in the region.

    As long as I've been doing electrical work 480 has always had my respect. That being said, with all the literature surrounding arc flashes and the depth of studies which have arisen over the past ten years, its left me with a greater concern than I've ever had. Concerns like--what is the probability of arc flashes occurring between meter probes in/and around panel boxes when taking voltage readings....proximities of meter lead probes, even if using the minimal exposure tips (4mm) inside 480 cans? A special concern is- if one is checking phase to phase. I know how I've always done it-on the main lugs as many of my predecessors did and some still do, I presume. But, certainly doesn't mean that's the better approach.

    What are your thoughts? Means and methods when working by yourself and such?
    Go take this class, one of the best ones out there and they have one at RTP on 3/7

    http://e-hazard.com/arc-flash-traini...-qualified.php

  7. #27
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    In all of these examples of exposure the technician is exposed to energized parts. My understanding of 70E is this is a violation unless you are testing or de-energizing creates a greater hazard. Am I misunderstanding the standard?

  8. #28
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    In the loop

    Quote Originally Posted by jcole View Post
    In all of these examples of exposure the technician is exposed to energized parts. My understanding of 70E is this is a violation unless you are testing or de-energizing creates a greater hazard. Am I misunderstanding the standard?
    The problem that comes up is "HOW DO YOU KNOW" Once you suit up and remove the covers and test, you are fine to remove suit and work in panel as long as it tested dead and was locked out. BUT to remove the panel to check you don't know for sure it is dead.
    A cowboy may get thrown , but they always get up and walk forward.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by just the cowboy View Post
    The problem that comes up is "HOW DO YOU KNOW" Once you suit up and remove the covers and test, you are fine to remove suit and work in panel as long as it tested dead and was locked out. BUT to remove the panel to check you don't know for sure it is dead.
    Checking to see if de-energized is part of the six step process of ensuring an electrically safe work environment. And yes, you must be suited up when doing this. The point I was trying to make was that, in some of the posts, the workers were violating 70e because the equipment was not de-energized.

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