Service Relocation

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USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
My brother has an existing UG service to his modular home. He built an adjacent pole barn 30x45 a few years back and now wants power, but he intends to build a new house and demo the existing in the near future. POCO has told him they could provide new 400A service at the barn and he could put a 200A panel there and disconnect for future house. I told him I thought he was nuts if he thought he needed a 400A (320) service, but that's his to figure out with an EC. My question is how to feed the existing house until he starts construction?

His current house panel would then require a 4 wire feeder correct?
 

jumper

Senior Member
My brother has an existing UG service to his modular home. He built an adjacent pole barn 30x45 a few years back and now wants power, but he intends to build a new house and demo the existing in the near future. POCO has told him they could provide new 400A service at the barn and he could put a 200A panel there and disconnect for future house. I told him I thought he was nuts if he thought he needed a 400A (320) service, but that's his to figure out with an EC. My question is how to feed the existing house until he starts construction?

His current house panel would then require a 4 wire feeder correct?

Yes.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Some POCOs won't allow, but, under the NEC if he installs a 400 amp meter base at his barn and comes out of that base without entering the barn and without adding a disconnect, he can get by with a 3 wire "service" run to the existing disconenct at the home (or to a future home).
Basically they are still service conductors..they have just traveled thru a meter...
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
Thanks Augie, but I think he wants to get power to the pole barn now and just be set-up and ready when he starts on the new house. I was a little surprised the POCO recommended a 400A service, as he really can't be anywhere close to needing that, and he mentioned possibly a 2,000 sq ft house(gas appliances). I suppose if the new house is fairly close to the existing, he could get his new feeder run and bug onto it and only have to replace a relatively short section to the existing house. My point to him was it isn't always as simple as it sounds at first. Get a qualified EC and discuss options.
 
My brother has an existing UG service to his modular home. He built an adjacent pole barn 30x45 a few years back and now wants power, but he intends to build a new house and demo the existing in the near future. POCO has told him they could provide new 400A service at the barn and he could put a 200A panel there and disconnect for future house. I told him I thought he was nuts if he thought he needed a 400A (320) service, but that's his to figure out with an EC. My question is how to feed the existing house until he starts construction?

His current house panel would then require a 4 wire feeder correct?

Where is the residence water supply going to be bonded? Where is the service neutral going to be grounded? I doubt the 'pole barn' has a Ufer for a grounding electrode.

Good luck to your brother. Unfortunately my local AHJ frowns upon 'contingency' installations.
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
Water supply is a well, most likely poly pipe, supply lines are PVC, nothing to bond...doubt if there are any electrodes besides a ground rod or two.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Where is the residence water supply going to be bonded? Where is the service neutral going to be grounded? I doubt the 'pole barn' has a Ufer for a grounding electrode.

Good luck to your brother. Unfortunately my local AHJ frowns upon 'contingency' installations.

If present water pipe and CEE need to be utilized whether or not the home is supplied by a service or a feeder, I don't see why those even need consideration for what the OP is asking about. If pole barn doesn't have CEE or a water pipe or qualifying building steel then the barn gets "made" elecrodes - typically ground rods.

What does your AHJ say about the possible 400 amp service proposed here whether that kind of capacity is needed or not it is not a code violation, and is considered good design practice if the need is anticipated. Extra capacity is better then not enough.

All temporary services kind of are a contingency thing.
 
If present water pipe and CEE need to be utilized whether or not the home is supplied by a service or a feeder, I don't see why those even need consideration for what the OP is asking about.
I was adding up costs for his 'cipherin'. If he bonds neutral at the pole barn then he's got to run 4 conductors.

If pole barn doesn't have CEE or a water pipe or qualifying building steel then the barn gets "made" elecrodes - typically ground rods.

What does your AHJ say about the possible 400 amp service proposed here whether that kind of capacity is needed or not it is not a code violation, and is considered good design practice if the need is anticipated. Extra capacity is better then not enough.

All temporary services kind of are a contingency thing.

I agree and as far as the service drop, meter and first disconnect there would be no problem. My jurisdiction would have a problem with installing a feeder/panel with extra capacity to a modular home. You could do it but they would want you to pull the permit for the new home at that time and you would have to renew the permit every 6 months and start explaining why the work wasn't done.

So why not just install the upgrades and not tell them? Cause they might not let you grandfather the old work in and you also may get a knock on the door of your modular home to check for the proper 'upgrades'. They used this tactic to get all the mobiles up on foundations. Everybody who had had a service upgrade got a letter from the city requiring a foundation for their mobiles.

The joys of living in the Union of Soviet Kalifornia
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I was adding up costs for his 'cipherin'. If he bonds neutral at the pole barn then he's got to run 4 conductors.



I agree and as far as the service drop, meter and first disconnect there would be no problem. My jurisdiction would have a problem with installing a feeder/panel with extra capacity to a modular home. You could do it but they would want you to pull the permit for the new home at that time and you would have to renew the permit every 6 months and start explaining why the work wasn't done.

So why not just install the upgrades and not tell them? Cause they might not let you grandfather the old work in and you also may get a knock on the door of your modular home to check for the proper 'upgrades'. They used this tactic to get all the mobiles up on foundations. Everybody who had had a service upgrade got a letter from the city requiring a foundation for their mobiles.

The joys of living in the Union of Soviet Kalifornia
So you are saying if I wanted to install a 2000 amp supply to that modular home even though it may only require 100 amps by code your AHJ will reject it? This is done all the time - maybe not to that extreme, especially for residential property. You do more work down the road you pull new permits for that new work.

Bonding neutral at pole barn only means he needs to run a 4 wire feeder to the second building if that second building is supplied as a feeder from the first building. Nothing wrong with a splice box in the service or multiple sets of conductors leaving the meter if it is outside the first building - anything supplying a second structure is still service conductors. Now if POCO has some rules about this you may need a service disconnect and then anything after that is a feeder.

Putting a mobile home on a foundation kind of defeats the purpose of calling it "mobile".
I think there are too many rules here - then I hear these kind of stories and remember just how good life is here.
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
[I was a little surprised the POCO recommended a 400A service, as he really can't be anywhere close to needing that]

POCO would really not care, since new service and associated costs (probably huge) would be paid by the customer. But....monthly flat rate facilities charges are much higher for a 400A service (really 320A continuous), so if you don't need it, it wouldn't be a good idea.
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
As an update, after doing some more thinking about this, why can't a new meter base with double lugs be installed on the barn, back to back a MB panel in the barn, and off the second set of load side lugs tie back into the existing three wire service for the house?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
That is acceptable to the NEC. (as noted in Post #4 of this thread)
In this area one of the four POCOs I deal with will not allow it.. no idea why
so clear it with POCO.
 
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USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
Thanks Augie, I guess I was confused by your statement Without entering the barn in post #4. I guess I don't understand why the POCO would advocate (2) 200A disconnects if they're not necessary. I understand the convenience of grouped disconnects, but I don't believe it is required in this case?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Tried to make the point for years here that "south" of the meter was not their concern.
There answer has pretty much been follow their rules or get your power from some other power company :D
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
I thought that was the way it worked too. I do believe there is some misconception about "grouping" of disconnects in this case. What would have seemed relatively simple, has now gotten expensive. POCO did say we could re-use the existing 3-wire to the house, but when I asked how this would be allowed if there was a disconnect ahead of it, no answer.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Tried to make the point for years here that "south" of the meter was not their concern.
There answer has pretty much been follow their rules or get your power from some other power company :D
South of the meter is not their concern only if you and they agree that the load side of the meter is the service point.
And if you disagree, you are back to not getting power from them :)
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Hey, this is the same guys that require meatllic conduit on the load side of the meter to the 1st disconnect.. yep..customer conduit & wire.
In both cases I have heard the original logic was that until you get to the 1st overt-current device, any fault could effect their system. As USMC states, the great and powerful OZ has spoken.
 
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