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Thread: No load losses - normal vs reverse fed

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwire View Post


    Can you explain how we ended up down this rabbit hole?
    Maybe just say you made a mistake?
    And maybe I didn't.

    "This means that turns ratio for my 240/120V tranny is not exactly 2:1."
    Start from there and explain why that is a mistake.
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
    And maybe I didn't.

    "This means that turns ratio for my 240/120V tranny is not exactly 2:1."
    Start from there and explain why that is a mistake.
    The thread is here for all to see and make their own call.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwire View Post
    The thread is here for all to see and make their own call.
    I just prefer facts.
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  4. #84
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    Just checked out a 1:1 600VA isolation transformer. The no load is a boost of 1.03 on the secondary. Check the output voltage on an old school AC adapter if you have one around. The no load voltage on those can be high by as much as 50%. Load it down to the rated amp and the voltage drops down to something in line with the rated voltage. Step load regulation is more pronounced on tiny transformers. It's for this reason one neighbor's AC is much more likely to cause another neighbor's lights to dim noticeably every time their stat cycles when they're in a rural area that is fed from a tiny pole piglet.

    In theory transformers conform exactly to the ratio but out in the real world, they're made of real world materials with resistance and needs compensation. We regularly ignore things like air friction, wiring resistance and such in the classroom for the sake of simplicity so the focus remains on the principle. If the wire you wind around a nail was an ideal coil, you could attach a battery, then short the wires together and it would stay on indefinitely like an MRI machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldDigger View Post
    AFAIK, if the connection is made at just the right time (voltage peak) the inrush may be just the normal magnetizing current, with at most a factor of two that could be attributed to hysteresis.
    If the initial current in the winding (zero) is the same as the steady state current would be at the same point in the cycle, then there should not be a major transient.
    It is not like a motor which has to come up to speed.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

    This surprised me a bit at first too but the worst inrush occurs when its switched on at zero crossing and the least when its turned on at the peak.
    Last edited by Electric-Light; 01-11-17 at 03:21 PM.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    Just checked out a 1:1 600VA isolation transformer. The no load is a boost of 1.03 on the secondary. Check the output voltage on an old school AC adapter if you have one around. The no load voltage on those can be as high by as much as 50%. Load it down to the rated amp and the voltage drops down to something in line with the rated voltage. Step load regulation is more pronounced on tiny transformers. It's for this reason one neighbor's AC is much more likely to cause another neighbor's lights to dim noticeably every time their stat cycles when they're in a rural area that is fed from a tiny pole piglet.
    We are not talking about small transformers. It was established and not questioned that small transformers have compensated windings.

    But larger NEMA transformers do not have this compensation.

  6. #86
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    ElectroFelon…

    Returning to you original query... "Impact of reverse-feeding on transformer losses!" Perhaps my answer using a single-phase xfmr was too elementary for some of the posters! So, following is additional detail.

    While the Xfmr is considered a ‘simple’ electrical apparatus, the mfg’r has practical problems to consider. For example, consider a 3-core (or 3-limb or 3-leg) xfmr! Most assume it is symmetrical regarding development of magnetic flux density and excitation current! The simple fact is flux-density in each of the 3-cores is uneven!

    It is not by accident the Xfmr is described as having a primary-winding and secondary-winding! Then design parameters are directed toward having the supply-source connected to the primary-winding! Why?

    Unmatching magnetic flux-densities in the 3-cores result in uneven induced-voltages in the secondary-winding! Then, the mfg’r, ‘adjusts’ the effective turns-ratio of each phase so that secondary output-voltages are better matched! Usually, the ‘adjustment’ is made to the turns-ratio in the winding having a smaller wire, hence, more latitude in location and accessibility!

    Now you can see why reversing-feed could affect the primary-winding’s voltage if used as the output, resulting in the Caveat to contact the Mfg’r!

    Reur comment on ‘Inrush’… I suggest searching MHF files! There is a wealth of info! Here’s a hint… determining ’Inrush-current’ is not simple. The process is quite complicated! Any ‘Inrush-current’ problem must consider two components… the transient-period (the first few cycles, including the first-cycle-peak) and then the steady-state region (a few to many seconds)! Furthermore, the 3-phase currents never coincide together!

    Gentle people! Please do not misconstrue the above as Xmrs-101!

    Regards, Phil Corso
    Last edited by Phil Corso; 01-11-17 at 03:53 PM.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Corso View Post
    )! Furthermore, the 3-phase currents never coincide together!
    Admittedly... a bit Yogi Berra-ish!

    Phil

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Corso View Post
    Admittedly... a bit Yogi Berra-ish!

    Phil
    sooo, i wonder if those big ass transformers between the alternators and the grid at pump-up hydros are bi-directional
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Corso View Post
    ElectroFelon…

    Returning to you original query... "Impact of reverse-feeding on transformer losses!" Perhaps my answer using a single-phase xfmr was too elementary for some of the posters! So, following is additional detail.

    While the Xfmr is considered a ‘simple’ electrical apparatus, the mfg’r has practical problems to consider. For example, consider a 3-core (or 3-limb or 3-leg) xfmr! Most assume it is symmetrical regarding development of magnetic flux density and excitation current! The simple fact is flux-density in each of the 3-cores is uneven!

    It is not by accident the Xfmr is described as having a primary-winding and secondary-winding! Then design parameters are directed toward having the supply-source connected to the primary-winding! Why?

    Unmatching magnetic flux-densities in the 3-cores result in uneven induced-voltages in the secondary-winding! Then, the mfg’r, ‘adjusts’ the effective turns-ratio of each phase so that secondary output-voltages are better matched! Usually, the ‘adjustment’ is made to the turns-ratio in the winding having a smaller wire, hence, more latitude in location and accessibility!

    Now you can see why reversing-feed could affect the primary-winding’s voltage if used as the output, resulting in the Caveat to contact the Mfg’r!

    Reur comment on ‘Inrush’… I suggest searching MHF files! There is a wealth of info! Here’s a hint… determining ’Inrush-current’ is not simple. The process is quite complicated! Any ‘Inrush-current’ problem must consider two components… the transient-period (the first few cycles, including the first-cycle-peak) and then the steady-state region (a few to many seconds)! Furthermore, the 3-phase currents never coincide together!

    Gentle people! Please do not misconstrue the above as Xmrs-101!

    Regards, Phil Corso
    Very interesting Phil. So does the above form of compensation commonly exist in the typical transformers used in electrical construction, say your typical 75KVA 480D to 120/208Y?
    Ethan Brush - East West Electric & Specialty Construction. NY, WA, RI, MA

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    I wonder if those big ass transformers between the alternators and the grid at pump-up hydros are bi-directional
    They would have to be for those plants because the generators run as synchronous motors during off-peak hours to refill the reservoir. But that's also true for any powerplant GSU transformer I've ever seen: Even the plant isn't generating then the station service power is flowing "backwards" through that grid tie in order to keep the lights on and the ancillary equipment running.


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