Recessed lighting question

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Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
Quick question regarding recessed lights. Was informed there was a light out that they could not find why it was out. Near the end of the shift I went up to check it out and noticed that the wires connecting to the screw shell were burnt back a good 2 inches, (no insulation left just wire). I looked at the other lights in the room and all of them are like that. How there has been no short is beyond me.

I have installed plenty of them, but once the job is done we move on to the next one so have never came across this. Is this a common problem with recessed lighting or is there something else going on? I really didn't have time to investigate but I figured I would ask here before I get into it tomorrow in case there is something obvious I should be looking for.

Dave
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
1. Look for bad connections, although it is unlikely to affect all equally.
2. Overwattage lamps?
3. Non insulation contact fixtures installed in installation or with ventilation blocked somehow.
4. Voltage too high for bulb design rating?
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
1. Look for bad connections, although it is unlikely to affect all equally.
2. Overwattage lamps?
3. Non insulation contact fixtures installed in installation or with ventilation blocked somehow.
4. Voltage too high for bulb design rating?

I agree with you on 1 and with three, though there is no insulation up there, there could be something else going on with any ventilation.

I'll probably start by checking 2 and 4, then go from there.

Ok, wish me luck, and thanks a bunch:)
 
What kind of lamp for the fixture call for? And what was in there? Even with the right type and wattage, lamps vary greatly in terms of the heat they emit at the socket, versus the business end. I thought I was clever buying a mess of cheap genetic MR12 (12v) lamps for my own place. I ended up replacing every socket in that kitchen.

It's enough to drive a fellow into the arms of LED retrofit lamps.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
If all the lights in the room are like that. The wire must have been pulled out to far. The bulb is oversized. Or, perhaps a surge. Or most likely you were mistaken, that they were all like that.
Don't forget the recessed lights have a heat sensor in them. That would ALMOST always open the circuit before the heat gets high enough to melt wires.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If all the lights in the room are like that. The wire must have been pulled out to far. The bulb is oversized. Or, perhaps a surge. Or most likely you were mistaken, that they were all like that.
Don't forget the recessed lights have a heat sensor in them. That would ALMOST always open the circuit before the heat gets high enough to melt wires.
It does not have to melt the wires, just char the insulation.
Possibly the incorrect wire type was used in the fixtures. Do they have a valid UL file number on the tags?
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
It does not have to melt the wires, just char the insulation.
Possibly the incorrect wire type was used in the fixtures. Do they have a valid UL file number on the tags?

I unfortunately can find no markers on the fixtures themselves. I wanted to find out about the fixtures and what wattage lamps they should have in. Only identifying mark I found at all was on the heat sensor which did me no good.

I tested the voltage and that seemed to be fine. As for the bulbs themselves, they have us using 100w equivalent.
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
If all the lights in the room are like that. The wire must have been pulled out to far. The bulb is oversized. Or, perhaps a surge. Or most likely you were mistaken, that they were all like that.
Don't forget the recessed lights have a heat sensor in them. That would ALMOST always open the circuit before the heat gets high enough to melt wires.

No, was not mistaken, every single one of them. I'm guessing oversized lamps, but without being able to identify the silly fixtures, I'm not sure of what the max wattage should be. If I were to make an uninformed guess, I would say 60w, but for all I know it could be even less.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
I unfortunately can find no markers on the fixtures themselves. I wanted to find out about the fixtures and what wattage lamps they should have in. Only identifying mark I found at all was on the heat sensor which did me no good.

I tested the voltage and that seemed to be fine. As for the bulbs themselves, they have us using 100w equivalent.

Two weeks ago a bulb went out in one of my bathroom cans. I used a 60W bulb because that is all I had. It kicked the thermo out. The pic is one minute ( had to turn the FLIR on) after the thermo tripped. See the temp?????

Imagine how hot it is with a 100W bulb.


IMG_2630.jpg
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
Two weeks ago a bulb went out in one of my bathroom cans. I used a 60W bulb because that is all I had. It kicked the thermo out. The pic is one minute ( had to turn the FLIR on) after the thermo tripped. See the temp?????

Imagine how hot it is with a 100W bulb.


View attachment 11158

Never thought of taking a measurement of the temp.

That is something that is bugging me. Why are the heat sensors not working? Everything appeared to be hooked up correctly.

Some of these wires are pretty bad. Just a matter of time before something happens. IMO they should not use the lights in this room until they get fixed. I was over ruled. They will get the parts to repair the one that stopped working and they will repair the others as they need too.

I was basically accused of "looking for things". Kicker is, I was working on a different horror project when I was asked to look at this light or I would have never known.

I'll try to get some decent pictures of inside the can's tomorrow showing the wires if anyone is interested.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Possibly fixtures with counterfeit UL stickers which are using the wrong type of wire in the high heat area?
If they are not in fact legitimately listed, the fixtures should be replaced immediately.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Never thought of taking a measurement of the temp.

That is something that is bugging me. Why are the heat sensors not working? Everything appeared to be hooked up correctly.

Some of these wires are pretty bad. Just a matter of time before something happens. IMO they should not use the lights in this room until they get fixed. I was over ruled. They will get the parts to repair the one that stopped working and they will repair the others as they need too.

I was basically accused of "looking for things". Kicker is, I was working on a different horror project when I was asked to look at this light or I would have never known.

I'll try to get some decent pictures of inside the can's tomorrow showing the wires if anyone is interested.

Note that the temp is of the bulb, just after it was off. Par bulb may read over 200F. Pic was just to make a point that the proper bulbs should always be used. It maybe impossible to read the housing.
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
Possibly fixtures with counterfeit UL stickers which are using the wrong type of wire in the high heat area?
If they are not in fact legitimately listed, the fixtures should be replaced immediately.


Oh, believe me, I agree, they should all be replaced. I still think this place should be gutted and redone. Neither of them are going to happen. Its just a matter of time before something happens there.

I want to know how this place passes its yearly? First day in this place I realized it was fubar, though at the time I didnt realize just how messed up it was. Was obvious things I noticed, electric baseboard heaters beat to crap, covers off, wires easily accessible, (then there was the one right next to the tub...that one bothers me), regular highhats in the showers....just stuff in general that I would point out to my buddy.

I'm normally pretty easy going. Dont let much get to me. This place it making me angry, not just at what I've seen, but with the administrations callous disregard of the dangers I am pointing out to them.

Here are pictures from a couple of the lights and one from the light I pulled

IMG_0123.jpg

IMG_0121.jpg

IMG_0113.jpg
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You can do everything right - proper IC/non IC application, proper lamp size for the application, but if the rivet that connects the supply lead to the center pin or shell is loose - it will still develop heat from that weak connection point. The longer it is in the circuit that way the worse condition it eventually leads to.

Torquing too tight when installing lamps can pull socket shell loose from the connection point also.
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
You can do everything right - proper IC/non IC application, proper lamp size for the application, but if the rivet that connects the supply lead to the center pin or shell is loose - it will still develop heat from that weak connection point. The longer it is in the circuit that way the worse condition it eventually leads to.

Torquing too tight when installing lamps can pull socket shell loose from the connection point also.


I did tug on the wires to check the connections but noticed nothing loose, but didnt really look much more into it. One thing I did notice on the one I pulled out is that the bulb was very hard to screw/unscrew. The others I removed seemed to be fine though in that regards. Way it felt, when I took it out I was expecting to see some type of corrosion inside, but there was none.

This is an issue I warned my buddy about. In changing the bulbs, (when they give him the money for it.....cant even get that), to make sure there is no power to the lights. I'm worried that if he is putting the bulbs in and there is any twist one of the bare wires will make contact with the casing.

This whole situation is bad. I need to get back to my normal work.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I did tug on the wires to check the connections but noticed nothing loose, but didnt really look much more into it. One thing I did notice on the one I pulled out is that the bulb was very hard to screw/unscrew. The others I removed seemed to be fine though in that regards. Way it felt, when I took it out I was expecting to see some type of corrosion inside, but there was none.
Heat got to the socket shell as well. If you were to compare a good socket to this one side by side you may notice the bad one is discolored some. Also look closely at the connection point of the rivet that connects the shell to the supply lead as well as the rivet supplying the center pin. Often times you will notice some carbon tracking around it if it has been loose.
 
My first thought was over wattage lamps, but if the thermal overloads are doing their job the light should shut off till it cools. I would ask if the light go on and off occasionally, over time that may have caused this.
 

Bladnaster

Member
Location
CT.
I'll get a picture tomorrow. Thermal sensors are NOT near the lamps themselves. They are attached to the box on the fixture where the splices are. I'm guessing that there is a good 1'1/2 foot of mc from the box to the fixture. I was wondering about that while I was wondering about why it was not working. Seemed to be an awful lot of wire that had to get hot before it would pick it up and kick, but wasn't sure if there was something internal within the sensor that measured something else.

Just found a picture of a similar set up.

663-recessed_lighting_fu.jpg
 
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