210.12(A)(3)

Status
Not open for further replies.

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
(3) A listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker installed at the origin of the branch circuit in combination with a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter installed at the first outlet box on the branch circuit where all of the following conditions are met:
What is a "listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker" and does it even exist?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Under what code cycle did that appear in the NEC? I searched the ROP for 2008, 2011 and the current 2014 and it wasn't in there.
 
Last edited:

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I find it particularly frustrating that Informational Note 1 tells us where to find information on every possible type of AFCI except listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker.
I also read for the first time that combining an ordinary branch circuit breaker with an outlet type AFCI is only allowed if that particular combination is identified as providing the same functionality as a system combination AFCI.
Does this mean that we have to use the same brand branch circuit breaker and outlet AFCI? If not, who would identify that particular combination?

What used to be an easy choice has suddenly become very very complicated.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
When I do a UL code correlation search using that code section as the input, the only return is for the AFCI receptacle device. There is no return for the required breaker.
 
Last edited:

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician

But did you find any breakers that are listed to that standard? I haven't.

Our electrical inspector was out of town so I did a service inspection. The condos are done in EMT (contractors choice, not required by our code for this structure) and the contractor has pulled multiwire branch circuits. He was not aware of our adoption of the 2014 code that requires AFCIs for most dwelling unit circuits and was asking about using outlet type AFCIs at the first outlet on each branch circuit to avoid having to buy two pole AFCIs.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Since that standard says this:

1.4 These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections

Would that be series arcing and mean it is not a new combo unit?

Then a SAP breaker would be listed as AVZQ and not AWAH?

I am just guessing here.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Putting outlet type AFCIs on an MWBC is great as long as they have individual neutrals from that point on. So the "advantage" of having an MWBC in the first place will only apply to the combined home run part of the circuit.
I am not sure whether having a combined neutral would cause both outlet units to trip when one side faulted, but I guess that would not necessarily rule that configuration out.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I wasn't totally correct but here is the proposal. Nonetheless I have heard that those listed units are not available.

Request by Terry Cromer, representing the NC Association of Electrical Contractors, to amend the 2012 NC NEC, Section 406.4.
The proposed amendment is as follows:

406.4(D)(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:


(1) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter receptacle
(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker

This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.
Exception: Non-grounding type receptacle(s)
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
I have heard that there are none on the market and NC has proposed an amendment to delete it altogether

Hmmm....now I would not agree with North Carolina's direction on that public input and I am betting the CMP members will not either. There were some other items I can remember that were not on the market yet at one time that actually made it into the NEC and now they are being used in multiple articles...(210 and 406). I am sure you are aware of the devices I speak of.

I like more options and when the options finally come to market...it just means..well....more options:angel:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Hmmm....now I would not agree with North Carolina's direction on that public input and I am betting the CMP members will not either. There were some other items I can remember that were not on the market yet at one time that actually made it into the NEC and now they are being used in multiple articles...(210 and 406). I am sure you are aware of the devices I speak of.

I like more options and when the options finally come to market...it just means..well....more options:angel:


This was a local amendment proposal and not submitted to the NEC
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Since that standard says this:

1.4 These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections

Would that be series arcing and mean it is not a new combo unit?

Then a SAP breaker would be listed as AVZQ and not AWAH?

I am just guessing here.
When you dig deep enough you will find UL and the AFCI people all say that a glowing connection is just a high resistance point on the circuit and it is not an arc.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
When you dig deep enough you will find UL and the AFCI people all say that a glowing connection is just a high resistance point on the circuit and it is not an arc.
AHHH....but while we still have NOT built a perfect mouse trap..we are getting darn close. There (at least in my mind) is a difference. The intent of the AFCI was not to solve against every known condition, only to protect against conditions we can aid to prevent with current technology. All technology has to crawl before it can walk and so while they don't handle 100% of the expressed concerns...we can at least mark the ones off the list that we can help prevent.

But I kinda think we all agree with that. Some just wish (or feel they were mislead) that AFCI's are the means to end all.....they are just another line of defense against potential loss of life and property.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
AHHH....but while we still have NOT built a perfect mouse trap..we are getting darn close. There (at least in my mind) is a difference. The intent of the AFCI was not to solve against every known condition, only to protect against conditions we can aid to prevent with current technology. All technology has to crawl before it can walk and so while they don't handle 100% of the expressed concerns...we can at least mark the ones off the list that we can help prevent.

But I kinda think we all agree with that. Some just wish (or feel they were mislead) that AFCI's are the means to end all.....they are just another line of defense against potential loss of life and property.
The manufacturers have taken a huge step backwards with at least two manufactures eliminating the ground fault detection for their AFCIs. The AFCI does not look for a parallel arc unless the current exceeds 75 amps, and does not look for a series arc, something that I have not been convinced even exists at dwelling unit voltages, unless the current exceeds 5 amps.
A high resistance connection can result in a glowing connection with less than one amp of current. This connection can produce enough heat to start a fire. If the AFCI has ground fault protection it would be very likely that the heat from the glowing connection would result in a ground fault condition before there is enough heat outside of the enclosure.

As you well know I am not a fan of AFCIs, but they are here to stay and given that they should be required to have a GFP function.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top