NEC vs City Code [City requiring electric utility to meet all their requirements]

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utilityengr

Member
Location
California
Hi all. First time poster, long time visitor.

I'm scratching my head on a particular issue that has caused some debate in the office. I work for a utility company in California. I'm a project engineer leading the entire effort of a 66kV station re-build. This involves installing a new MEER (Mechanical Electrical Equipment Room) which houses all the microprocessor relays on 19" relay racks protecting the station and lines, etc. This MEER is essentially a small (call it 50'x 20') "building" with lights, AC, DC, outlets, control cable less than 600V, etc. We submitted our plans to the city for review, including electrical schematics of the aforementioned items.

They shot back at us requiring us to do a bunch of electrical and green energy requirements. We replied citing section 90.2B of the NEC in a nice letter, which grants utility companies and exemption. They came back and said they do not accept that response and still require us to perform the laundry list of changes they are asking for.

I'm pretty close to hiring a lawyer or a professional green building engineering team (of which we never use) to modify our building which is currently being fabricated. It will cost a lot in changeorders to the building fabricator, my engineering and design contractor, and a new PO to a professional used to dealing with the city. At the end of the day, I see this no less than an extra $100k cost at minimum. The worst part is a huge delay in the project, we can't start construction now, which is eating into our 66kV outage window before summertime loading. Is there another way to convince the city, another section, or anything else, that will prevent us from jumping through the hoops? Any general advice for dealing with the city?

Thanks for reading.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The biggest problem that I can see is that although the NEC specifically exempts utilities where the installation is part of the power generation and delivery system rather than, say, an office building, the energy codes might not have that same exemption.
So I would start with a lawyer.
Any changes that they justify by citing the NEC are a different matter.
If the city is Los Angeles, however, I might recommend giving in since some of their totally illogical and probably unjustifiable rules have managed to survive against decades of challenges.
*Perhaps just buying a politician will be cheaper and faster*
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
The biggest problem that I can see is that although the NEC specifically exempts utilities where the installation is part of the power generation and delivery system rather than, say, an office building, the energy codes might not have that same exemption.
So I would start with a lawyer.
Any changes that they justify by citing the NEC are a different matter.
If the city is Los Angeles, however, I might recommend giving in since some of their totally illogical and probably unjustifiable rules have managed to survive against decades of challenges.
*Perhaps just buying a politician will be cheaper and faster*
Would it be fair to sum up your post as.......
You are in California, what did you expect?
You didn't have a lawyer already? Why not?
A good lawyer will tell you whether or not your case is worth his time and expense.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
When you say the building is being fabricated, do you mean it is being built off site and will be assembled on site?
Whoever is doing that should be submitting drawings to a 3rd party for California approval and a California label to attach to the building.
In some states this means the only say so a local AHJ has is on the Electrical service connections and how it is tied down.
You don't have to let them in the building if you don't want to.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Boy 100k for green energy requirements in a 50x20 room.
You are talking about some LED lights and motion controls. really 100K

Like others have said. I do not think the exemption applies to the building itself only to the power generation equipment. Why would you be submitting the plans to a City plan check otherwise?

I would be there is more to this than you are speaking of.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
90.2(B) is part of NEC. Is NEC the official code that is adopted or is it a modified version AKA California code. If it is California code does it still contain same/similar wording as NEC 90.2(B)?

Energy code compliance is a different issue from NEC or equivalent code, unless that equivalent code contains energy efficiency requirements, or somehow mandates other (energy) codes be followed.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Hi all. First time poster, long time visitor.

I'm scratching my head on a particular issue that has caused some debate in the office. I work for a utility company in California. I'm a project engineer leading the entire effort of a 66kV station re-build. This involves installing a new MEER (Mechanical Electrical Equipment Room) which houses all the microprocessor relays on 19" relay racks protecting the station and lines, etc. This MEER is essentially a small (call it 50'x 20') "building" with lights, AC, DC, outlets, control cable less than 600V, etc. We submitted our plans to the city for review, including electrical schematics of the aforementioned items.

They shot back at us requiring us to do a bunch of electrical and green energy requirements. We replied citing section 90.2B of the NEC in a nice letter, which grants utility companies and exemption. They came back and said they do not accept that response and still require us to perform the laundry list of changes they are asking for.

I'm pretty close to hiring a lawyer or a professional green building engineering team (of which we never use) to modify our building which is currently being fabricated. It will cost a lot in changeorders to the building fabricator, my engineering and design contractor, and a new PO to a professional used to dealing with the city. At the end of the day, I see this no less than an extra $100k cost at minimum. The worst part is a huge delay in the project, we can't start construction now, which is eating into our 66kV outage window before summertime loading. Is there another way to convince the city, another section, or anything else, that will prevent us from jumping through the hoops? Any general advice for dealing with the city?

Thanks for reading.

I feel that you stated your arguments above incorrectly. And you are in the one State where these issues shouldn't be a surprise. First off, 90.2B exempts you from the NEC in certain applications. It doesn't exempt you from the applicable codes. If, for example, a State utility writes in its code that all 120/208 volt systems shall comply with the provisions of the NEC, then you would not be installing those systems to the NEC because you are exempt from the NEC. You would be installing them to the Utility code which is actually the exact same code requirement.

Second, the NEC doesn't even cover energy codes, so unless the State building code clearly exempts utilities from those energy codes they would still apply.

Perhaps your actual issue is more favorable to you, but your argument doesn't seem that way to me.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The energy code is a seperate code from the CA electric code. ( CA electric code is based on 2011 NEC) . I don't think they have a leg to stand on !

Oh! and a warm welcome to the Forum. :thumbsup:
 

utilityengr

Member
Location
California
Boy 100k for green energy requirements in a 50x20 room.
You are talking about some LED lights and motion controls. really 100K

Like others have said. I do not think the exemption applies to the building itself only to the power generation equipment. Why would you be submitting the plans to a City plan check otherwise?

I would be there is more to this than you are speaking of.

We cannot install our building without demolishing an older building on site and installing a block wall. Additionally, we are repaving a large area of the station. This type of project requires city review for at minimum, the non-electrical requirements. They required our electrical plans be submitted. Note, we have never been asked by a city before to provide electrical plans ever. We haven't been in this situation before.

It's not quite 100K for LED Lights. It involves certification and documentation. I have an engineering contractor who designed the building (new changeorder to fix to city's wishlist). A fabricator who procured material and is building it off-site (new changeorder new material and construction change). Plus the fees of a lawyer/green building architect/engineer (new charge).
 

utilityengr

Member
Location
California
I feel that you stated your arguments above incorrectly. And you are in the one State where these issues shouldn't be a surprise. First off, 90.2B exempts you from the NEC in certain applications. It doesn't exempt you from the applicable codes. If, for example, a State utility writes in its code that all 120/208 volt systems shall comply with the provisions of the NEC, then you would not be installing those systems to the NEC because you are exempt from the NEC. You would be installing them to the Utility code which is actually the exact same code requirement.

Second, the NEC doesn't even cover energy codes, so unless the State building code clearly exempts utilities from those energy codes they would still apply.

Perhaps your actual issue is more favorable to you, but your argument doesn't seem that way to me.

Thank you for your insight. I have very little to no experience in this realm, and many of my colleagues do not. We have never encountered this much opposition with a city before. Usually we are always given our pass.

Would the state code supersede the city code? Or vice versa? For example, if the CA code exempts utilities from energy code, this city cannot enforce it?
 

utilityengr

Member
Location
California
When you say the building is being fabricated, do you mean it is being built off site and will be assembled on site?
Whoever is doing that should be submitting drawings to a 3rd party for California approval and a California label to attach to the building.
In some states this means the only say so a local AHJ has is on the Electrical service connections and how it is tied down.
You don't have to let them in the building if you don't want to.

Correct, about the building fabrication.
Building fabricator has submitted and complied with all structural and mechanical requirements.

Thank you. Unfortunately, this permit is for a few things going on at this station. We need their blessing here to do the rest of the work.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Would the state code supersede the city code? Or vice versa? For example, if the CA code exempts utilities from energy code, this city cannot enforce it?
Two things:
1. Much of the difficult and/or tedious part of the Energy Code in CA just went into effect in the last few months. You can find some threads by fullthrotl describing his experiences getting certified. AFAIK it applies to both residential and commercial.
2. The extent to which a Federal or State code preempt lower level codes depends on how they are written. With respect to the provisions specifically of the NEC, CA sets a high bar for a local jurisdiction to make more restrictive requirements. In particular the local ordinance adoption has to cite specific local conditions that justify the restriction (such as high seismic risk.)
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
We cannot install our building without demolishing an older building on site and installing a block wall. Additionally, we are repaving a large area of the station. This type of project requires city review for at minimum, the non-electrical requirements. They required our electrical plans be submitted. Note, we have never been asked by a city before to provide electrical plans ever. We haven't been in this situation before.

It's not quite 100K for LED Lights. It involves certification and documentation. I have an engineering contractor who designed the building (new changeorder to fix to city's wishlist). A fabricator who procured material and is building it off-site (new changeorder new material and construction change). Plus the fees of a lawyer/green building architect/engineer (new charge).

Yea but you are claiming 100k for all the hoops to jump.
To me that is outrageuos.
The certifications should not be that expensive. This is a small building and being such most of the rules are not that onerous.
The Engineer should have know the requirements.
Also a prefab building may have different requirements than one built on site. I doub't it though.

You can PM me if you wish as I am familiar with these energy code issues and am certified.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Yea but you are claiming 100k for all the hoops to jump.
To me that is outrageuos.
The certifications should not be that expensive. This is a small building and being such most of the rules are not that onerous.

You can PM me if you wish as I am familiar with these energy code issues and am certified.
On the other hand, if they are enforcing NEC rules against standard utility wiring practices, that could get pretty expensive fast.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
On the other hand, if they are enforcing NEC rules against standard utility wiring practices, that could get pretty expensive fast.

I can see if the building does not have the required clearences , access and related stuff . Yes I could see the costs skyrocket.
Those exemptions would not apply.
This would be building code and safety issue.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Thank you for your insight. I have very little to no experience in this realm, and many of my colleagues do not. We have never encountered this much opposition with a city before. Usually we are always given our pass.

Would the state code supersede the city code? Or vice versa? For example, if the CA code exempts utilities from energy code, this city cannot enforce it?

City code is state code in CA,
Only a city amendment that is filed with the state is enforceable.
Futhermore an amendment must be more restrictive and be only one of three express findings. Siesmic, Climatic or Topgraphical. If it is not one of these then the amedment is illegal.

So The AHJ cannot tell you to use a bigger door than is mandated in the CA codes.
Nor can they make the lighting more restrictive unless one of those express findings are claimed.

Good Luck.

I think the Lawyer money is better spent on the design changes.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I found this in the CA Elecitric code 2013

89.101.3.3 Exemptedfrom this Code. This code doesnot cover:(A)​
1. Installations in ships, watercraft other thanfloating dwelling units, railway rolling stock,aircraft, automotive vehicles, commercial coaches,mobilehomes, and recreational vehicles.
(B)
2. Installations underground in mines, mineshafts and tunnels.
(C)
3. Installations of railways for generation,transformation, transmission, or distribution ofpower used exclusively for operation of rolling stockor installations used exclusively for signaling andcommunication purposes.
(D)
4. Installation of communication equipmentunder the exclusive control of communicationutilities, located outdoors or in building spaces usedexclusively for such installations.

(E)
5.
Installations under the exclusive control of
electrical utilities for the purpose of communication,or metering; or for the generation, control,transformation, transmission, and distribution ofelectrical energy located in buildings usedexclusively by utilities for such purposes or locatedoutdoors on property owned or leased by the utilityor on public highways, streets, roads, etc., or
outdoors by established rights on private property.


Remember this does not cover the building or Energy codes. !!!!!!!!!

 
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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I think the Lawyer money is better spent on the design changes.
But in this case time is also money, and a quick threat by a lawyer might allow the project to get started sooner than if the design and fab changes have to be made. YMMV.
PS: If the changes involve insulation and air infiltration control in the building design (because of the AC) then it could also get expensive.
The energy code does not seem to distinguish between AC which is removing environmental heat and AC which is removing equipment generated heat. Sad.
 
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Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Thank you for your insight. I have very little to no experience in this realm, and many of my colleagues do not. We have never encountered this much opposition with a city before. Usually we are always given our pass.

Would the state code supersede the city code? Or vice versa? For example, if the CA code exempts utilities from energy code, this city cannot enforce it?

That really depends on the State. In Florida, the answer is yes, as in the standards written by the legislature state that no jurisdiction can make a code more stringent than the State code without permission. This was implemented in the 80's. In California, where I used to live I am not so sure. San Francisco used to have some far more stringent codes than the surrounding areas. They don't any more, so who knows.
 
When was (were?) permits issued? This past summer, we replaced the HVAC on our masonic temple (in CA), and were told to sign the contract in time that the contractor could pull permits before June 1. Apparently, permits issued before then are under old rules.
 
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