Pigtail all devices proposal

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mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I get worried when folks want to turn a safety standard into a quality assurance standard. To me those are two distinctly different objectives and not within the scope or purpose of the NEC.

People have a right to buy junk if that is what they want to do. :D


A burned up connection has nothing to do with quality. Having a light in the closet is quality, but preventing a home fire is life safety. 2 separate issues.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
My local inspector (Madison, WI) will fail you for back stabbing. I think any master electrician who does that should reconsider his trade choice. Pure laziness...

We shouldn't need "good practice" to be written into law. There are good and bad electricians out there. Period. Home owners need to check references.
 

packersparky

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Inspector
My local inspector (Madison, WI) will fail you for back stabbing. I think any master electrician who does that should reconsider his trade choice. Pure laziness...

We shouldn't need "good practice" to be written into law. There are good and bad electricians out there. Period. Home owners need to check references.

Not a violation. The inspector cannot enforce his/her opinion.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
I'm gonna keep backstabbing receptacles as long as they keep making them with holes in the back.:thumbsup:


Just like using the push in connectors that are factory installed in a recessed light. Hech yeah I use them.

Light bulb sockets can have issues, too. When people screw bulbs in too tight and smash the center tab. Do it enough times, and it makes for a poor contact. And ive seen plastic sockets burned up from this.

Should we request that all light bulb sockets are made to a uniform depth, and require bulbs to have a stop ring on them, so people can't screw them in too tight?:thumbsdown:
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
I think that pig tails are better but the code is a minimum set of standards concerned mainly with safety or helping electrical manufacturers make a profit.



If you can get the manufacturers of wire nuts to say they have some sort of super wire nuts that are very expensive that will be required for all of these pig tails you may have a chance.

Good luck.
Yeah I don't want to have to start buying $5 each Arc Fault Wire Nuts.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Wirenuts to me are just insulators in a box

Wrong.

Reason I know is that I've been fixing a lot of failing taps on older homes around here lately, have been seeing a lot of splices where installer made beautiful, tight spiral twist, twice as long as wire nut would cover, and insulated with tape.

Try to remember that you are only seeing the ones that failed, the ones done right aren't looked at as often since they have not failed.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Not a violation. The inspector cannot enforce his/her opinion.

Several key points to digest:

#1 The AHJ makes the call. Local authorities can choose to adopt or reject any NEC guideline.
#2 Backstabbing is a terrible practice for three good reasons. They are as follows:
a. The spring-loaded clips on cheap residential grade receptacles do not make very good contact, which could cause arcing or nuisance AFCI tripping
b. Should the neutral continuity be interrupted. We all know what happens when you touch an open neutral when the circuit is under load
c. Code allows for 15 or 20A receps. (residential only) to be installed on a 20A circuit if there are more than one recep on the circuit, but if the current passes through a 15A-rated device, the tap rule does not apply. You would be allowing 20A to potentially pass through a 15A-rated conductor.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I have been told that receptacles for 15A can pass through 20A under their listing and the NEC.
Active devices like GFCIs interrupt the pass through current and so a 15A device of that type may not automatically be rated for 20A pass through.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
The only time I've seen a real problem with backstabbing was about 20 years ago. Back then, the holes were big enough for 12 gauge wire.

Someone else's helper showed up on my finish. He was kinda green, so I had him put receptacles in the bedrooms (14 gauge wire). When I checked out the house, none of the bedroom plugs worked.

I started pulling out receps, and all the wires were stabbed in right, but I didn't have any power anywhere. So I asked him how much wire he stripped before he stabbed them in.

He sort of scrunched his face a little and asked......."you have to strip them?" :blink:
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Several key points to digest:

#1 The AHJ makes the call. Local authorities can choose to adopt or reject any NEC guideline.

Only if it is adopted into law, is a local AHJ able to enforce his wish? Some states that have state wide codes do not allow a local inspector adopt his own codes as Indiana is one such state, actually in Indiana there is no local AHJ as the state building department is the AHJ.

Any EC who does not take the time to look up the laws of their state as for the enforcement of building codes is doing their customers a disservice because they are allowing a self centered AHJ to enforce codes that are not required and can cost the customer more money in some cases., Illinois doesn't have state wide codes but I thought Wisconsin did???
From some reading of Wisconsin law I'm finding it also has these same requirements as Indiana, that the local inspector also has to enforce code as adopted by the state and can't be in conflict with the state code, and find no such change to the allowance of using stab in connections to receptacles and switch's?? you can read your state law here:

WISCONSIN STATUTES AND ADMINISTRATIVE CODE RELATING TO ELECTRICAL

See 316.004(2):
(2)?Municipal authority. Municipalities may exercise jurisdiction over inspection of electrical construction covered by the scope of this chapter. For public buildings and places of employment, s. SPS 316.920 (2) specifies the conditions required for municipalities to exercise this jurisdiction.
SPS 316.004 Note Note: Section SPS 320.02 (1) (a) prohibits any municipality from adopting an ordinance establishing restrictions on the electrical construction of one- and two-family dwellings covered by the Uniform Dwelling Code.
SPS 316.004 Note Note: Section SPS 361.03 (5) (b) prohibits any municipality from adopting an ordinance establishing restrictions on the electrical construction of multifamily dwellings as defined in s. SPS 362.0202.

As I found in the Wisconsin's law a local inspector is just that, like Indiana he is not an AHJ as it is the states department that is the AHJ in this case.

#2 Backstabbing is a terrible practice for three good reasons. They are as follows:

backstabs are UL listed for 15 and 20 amp circuits for switch's and 15 amp circuits only for receptacles as some years ago UL made the manufactures of receptacles reduce the hole diameter of the backstab to only allow #14 awg

a. The spring-loaded clips on cheap residential grade receptacles do not make very good contact, which could cause arcing or nuisance AFCI tripping

See above

b. Should the neutral continuity be interrupted. We all know what happens when you touch an open neutral when the circuit is under load

Or an open hot but if done correctly why should it be a problem, it is users choice

c. Code allows for 15 or 20A receps. (residential only) to be installed on a 20A circuit if there are more than one recep on the circuit, but if the current passes through a 15A-rated device, the tap rule does not apply. You would be allowing 20A to potentially pass through a 15A-rated conductor.

All 15 amp receptacles are UL rated for 20 amps pass-through including GFCI's and is why 15 amp duplex receptacles and switch's are allowed to be used on 20 amp circuits, again the above answers is what the code making panel will use to shoot your request down.

I myself will not use the backstabs for receptacles even though I pigtail all my receptacles, but where I know the load like a switch is feeding only a few lights or a receptacle is feeding a small fixed load then I have no problem using them, the only place where I have ever seen a problem is when someone uses an electric space heater or other high wattage appliance like a hair dryer, in these cases not only do I pig tail but I wrap the wire around both sets of screws on the receptacle giving allot more contact area for the wire, never had a failure when done like this.

As for the Wagos (stab in wire connectors) go again it depends upon the load as for a single or even a couple fixtures I have no problem with them but if each stab has several fixtures on it then I'll use a wire nut.

As far as changing the NEC I'm not for it as I like the flexibility to wire as I chose, we don't need any more design codes put into the NEC as we have far too many now.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
That only happens because people do not make up their splices rock solid before the installation of the wire nut.:angel:

No kidding, and the same can be said of passing through a device.

It is not the product that is a problem it is the installer.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Using screw terminals can fail just as easily as backstabs.

D7K_2302a.jpg



D7K_2301a.jpg
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Several key points to digest:


c. Code allows for 15 or 20A receps. (residential only) to be installed on a 20A circuit if there are more than one recep on the circuit, but if the current passes through a 15A-rated device, the tap rule does not apply. You would be allowing 20A to potentially pass through a 15A-rated conductor.

1. Where does it say residential only?

2. Someone probably already said it, but I believe that a 15 amp duplex receptacle is rated for 20 amp pass thru?

3. Does this tap rule apply to any part of this situation? I'm not up on "the tap rule" but I don't think so?
 

Cletis

Senior Member
Location
OH
The only time I've seen a real problem with backstabbing was about 20 years ago. Back then, the holes were big enough for 12 gauge wire.

Someone else's helper showed up on my finish. He was kinda green, so I had him put receptacles in the bedrooms (14 gauge wire). When I checked out the house, none of the bedroom plugs worked.

I started pulling out receps, and all the wires were stabbed in right, but I didn't have any power anywhere. So I asked him how much wire he stripped before he stabbed them in.

He sort of scrunched his face a little and asked......."you have to strip them?" :blink:

All i've done is residential/commercial service work for 20+years. I've seen hundreds, if not 1000's of burnt up receptacles. Due to backstabbing (mostly (not the installers fault), screw not ever tightened (next most frequent, installers fault), and the devices just plain failing internally. What it comes down to is I'm against using residential 15 and 20 amp receptacle devices and pass-thru power. That is the crux of my beef. I have 3 yrs to propose this it seems if I can find the time.
 

packersparky

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Inspector
Several key points to digest:

#1 The AHJ makes the call. Local authorities can choose to adopt or reject any NEC guideline.
#2 Backstabbing is a terrible practice for three good reasons. They are as follows:
a. The spring-loaded clips on cheap residential grade receptacles do not make very good contact, which could cause arcing or nuisance AFCI tripping
b. Should the neutral continuity be interrupted. We all know what happens when you touch an open neutral when the circuit is under load
c. Code allows for 15 or 20A receps. (residential only) to be installed on a 20A circuit if there are more than one recep on the circuit, but if the current passes through a 15A-rated device, the tap rule does not apply. You would be allowing 20A to potentially pass through a 15A-rated conductor.

As Wayne mentioned, in Wisconsin, a municipality cannot adopt standards that are more restrictive than SPS 316 and the NEC on one and two family dwellings.(unless they where built before 1980) Act 270 which was just recently signed into law, says the same thing for other than dwellings.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Here are a couple just to start with

http://www.homeinspector.org/resources/journals/Electric-Receptacles.pdf


https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/243828.pdf

I'm sure there are many many more. One of the main things i've noticed is when it happens and a customer loses 13 other outlets downstream they start running extension cords (the real cheap 16 gauge ones) all over the house til they can afford to fix. This would solve that problem. The sales of 4 port wago's and red wire nuts would go way up :happyyes:
If a circuit breaker fails, or any failure resulting in several outlets not working - and same home owner/occupant may still run extension cords, IMO this is not going to be enough substantiation to change a code.

My job "as a great electrician", is to provide a safe and long lasting electrical installation free from hazards to property and humans. So, with that in mind, I do it just as our forefathers did (old knob and tube installers knew how). Make my pre-twisted splices, fold them up way in back of box and leave out a black and a white for future device replacements over the next 100 years. HO's and Non-Qualified Electricians usually do not mess with splices in the back of boxes. I know this because i've seen 100's of them in old knob and tube boxes never touched in 80 years
The backstab, or even feeding through via screw terminals is using a product according to it's listing. Though many do agree the backstabbing seems to have a higher failure rate, it is a listed method. If you want to see a change here you may actually have a better chance of getting the listing criteria changed, otherwise continue to do what you do and sell your installs based on how much better they are then the guys that cut corners and/or only give minimal effort to meed codes and standards. A Cadillac and a Buick are in many ways the same thing, yet one has had more attention put into certain details and they do sell at a different sticker price because of some of those details.

NEC does require "pigtailing" of the neutral where it is part of a multiwire branch circuit, they do recognize there is increased hazards if that particular connection fails.
 
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