GFCI for dishwahers

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Esthy

Senior Member
NEC 2014: 210.8 (A) (6) Kitchens ? according to the handbook there is no need to install GFCI protection for dishwasher in dwelling units, but in 210.8 (D) GFCI protection for dishwashers shall be provided in dwelling units. Any input appreciated.

Thanks
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
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@Esthy

The NEC Handbook is not CODE, it is the opinion of a few individuals at the NFPA. However, I don't think it would say that dishwashers are not required to have outlets supplying them not be GFCI protected since 210.8(D) gives a direct requirement to do so. In fact, here is what 210.8(D) says:

210.8(D) Kitchen Dishwasher Branch Circuit
GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.
 

greenspark1

Senior Member
Location
New England
The commentary is left over from the 2011 code cycle, in 2014 210.8 (D) was added requiring dwelling unit kitchen dishwashers to be GFCI protected. The commentary needs to be revised.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Yep, the commentary in the 2014 Handbook is wrong. Also note that 210.8(D) says outlet, not receptacle. So even hardwired DW will require GFCI.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
This was considered one of the big changes in 2014 - especially to those that primarily do dwelling unit work. Does not look good for someone writing a book about how to use the code when they completely miss such a change, let alone a book that is basically published by the same entity that publishes the code itself:(
 
GFCI's below sinks

GFCI's below sinks

Here is a copy of the page

The following paragraph,#(7), regarding receptacles within 6' of the edge of a sink also says that it applies to "all other sinks" inferring that kitchen sinks are excluded from the 6' rule. More corrections seem to be in order.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Though a dishwasher not in a kitchen hardwired in at a wet bar is not required to be GFCI protected -- now if that same dishwasher uses a receptacle for the power it shall be GFCI protected.
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
Let's take a look at article 100...

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


It Does not say receptacle in 210.8(D)



(D) Kitchen Dishwasher Branch Circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
And even if it gets installed in a wet bar, it is still a "kitchen dishwasher" as an appliance category.
What other categories are there for residential grade dishwashers? If that is the intention of how to read this then the word "kitchen" is redundant IMO, they just need to say all dishwashers in dwelling units if that is what the intention is.

Regardless I still think it is the wrong way of attacking these failing units, make the manufacturers fix whatever the problem is, even if their solution is internal GFCI on the appliance.

Make them recall product already out there as well.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
What other categories are there for residential grade dishwashers? If that is the intention of how to read this then the word "kitchen" is redundant IMO, they just need to say all dishwashers in dwelling units if that is what the intention is.

Regardless I still think it is the wrong way of attacking these failing units, make the manufacturers fix whatever the problem is, even if their solution is internal GFCI on the appliance.

Make them recall product already out there as well.

So, are all refrigerators "kitchen refrigerators" because that is where they were initially installed and manufactured for?--
Why did they remove the "Kitchen" from the 6' sink GFCI rule in the 2014 if the wording for kitchen was not a specific place?
The definition of a kitchen is in the NEC. Charging statement calls out kitchen dishwasher branch circuit . A branch circuit feeding a dishwasher in a wet bar does not make it a kitchen branch circuit.
Does the kitchen countertops that are installed in a wet bar require 2 branch circuits? They should say all 120v dishwasher branch circuits which would include all types makes & models instead of being so specific.
Have all of you been GFCI the disposals & dishwasher receptacles within 6' of wet bar sinks since 2005 in which they removed the countertop surface language?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What other categories are there for residential grade dishwashers? If that is the intention of how to read this then the word "kitchen" is redundant IMO, they just need to say all dishwashers in dwelling units if that is what the intention is.

Regardless I still think it is the wrong way of attacking these failing units, make the manufacturers fix whatever the problem is, even if their solution is internal GFCI on the appliance.

Make them recall product already out there as well.

So, are all refrigerators "kitchen refrigerators" because that is where they were initially installed and manufactured for?--
Why did they remove the "Kitchen" from the 6' sink GFCI rule in the 2014 if the wording for kitchen was not a specific place?
The definition of a kitchen is in the NEC. Charging statement calls out kitchen dishwasher branch circuit . A branch circuit feeding a dishwasher in a wet bar does not make it a kitchen branch circuit.
Does the kitchen countertops that are installed in a wet bar require 2 branch circuits? They should say all 120v dishwasher branch circuits which would include all types makes & models instead of being so specific.
Have all of you been GFCI the disposals & dishwasher receptacles within 6' of wet bar sinks since 2005 in which they removed the countertop surface language?


Are you agreeing or disagreeing with something I said? Seems as though you are disagreeing with something, yet I pretty much agree with everything you mentined - aside from maybe the GFCI in wet bar changes back in 2005.

IIRC there was no direct NEC requirement for GFCI at a wet bar before the changes, yet many were installing them there anyway, some for any outlet within 6 feet of sink, some all counter top outlets only, some with some other interpretation of what they possibly thought was required. When the change came they just added language that said GFCI was required within 6 feet of any sink for 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles and it never specified wet bars. Don't recall if there was wording regarding kitchen or bath sinks - I think kitchen did have some wording that only limited it to countertops that otherwise needed protection even if no sink were there because of a different section, and bathrooms also needed protection counter top or not, but from a different section

210.8(D) has "kitchen" in the title, and "dwelling unit" in the text of the article. I think most see that to mean diswashers in dwelling unit kitchens, if that was not the intention of the CMP, then I believe they need to change it next time around for better clarification.

Don't know what refrigerators has to do with this. If either is intended for kitchens only - we have a listing issue if not installed in a kitchen I guess.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
No disagreement Kwired thought your wording used was in order -- Leo's point is the disagreement on weather a hardwired wet bar dishwasher was covered as kitchen.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
GFCI Requirements
NEC 2002 210.8(A)(7) -- Wet Bar sinks ? Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and located within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outside edge of a wet bar sink.
NEC 2005 210.8(A)(7) -- Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks ? Where the receptacles are within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outside edge of sink.
Unlike the 2014, there is no commentary of GFCI protection for receptacles serving appliances: disposals, dishwashers, refrigerators.
NEC 2014 210.8(A)(7) -- Sinks ? Where the receptacles are within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outside edge of sink.
2014 Commentary: Sinks in kitchens are not the only sinks where a ground-fault shock hazard exists; therefore, this requirement covers all other sinks in a dwelling. This GFCI requirement is not limited to receptacles serving countertop surfaces; rather, it covers all 125-V, 15- and 20-A receptacles within 6 feet of any point along the outside edge of the sink. Many appliances used in these locations are ungrounded, and the presence of water and grounded surfaces contributes to a hazardous environment. As illustrated in Exhibit 210.14, any 125-V, 15- or 20-A receptacle installed within 6 feet of a sink located in other than a kitchen is also required to be GFCI protected.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
GFCI Requirements
NEC 2002 210.8(A)(7) -- Wet Bar sinks ? Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and located within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outside edge of a wet bar sink.
NEC 2005 210.8(A)(7) -- Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks ? Where the receptacles are within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outside edge of sink.
Unlike the 2014, there is no commentary of GFCI protection for receptacles serving appliances: disposals, dishwashers, refrigerators.
NEC 2014 210.8(A)(7) -- Sinks ? Where the receptacles are within 1.8m (6 ft) of the outside edge of sink.
2014 Commentary: Sinks in kitchens are not the only sinks where a ground-fault shock hazard exists; therefore, this requirement covers all other sinks in a dwelling. This GFCI requirement is not limited to receptacles serving countertop surfaces; rather, it covers all 125-V, 15- and 20-A receptacles within 6 feet of any point along the outside edge of the sink. Many appliances used in these locations are ungrounded, and the presence of water and grounded surfaces contributes to a hazardous environment. As illustrated in Exhibit 210.14, any 125-V, 15- or 20-A receptacle installed within 6 feet of a sink located in other than a kitchen is also required to be GFCI protected.
Thanks for posting what was there in the past, as time goes by you kind of remember the problems that were once there, but you don't always remember just when or what order some of those changes occurred, or even specific details - just the ones that effected you regularly.

I remember the 2005 change had many people upset with the washer outlet in laundry areas that had sinks nearby - even if the outlet wasn't easily accessible it still required GFCI if within 6 feet of the sink.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
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Location
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Licensed Electrician
What other categories are there for residential grade dishwashers? If that is the intention of how to read this then the word "kitchen" is redundant IMO, they just need to say all dishwashers in dwelling units if that is what the intention is.Regardless I still think it is the wrong way of attacking these failing units, make the manufacturers fix whatever the problem is, even if their solution is internal GFCI on the appliance.Make them recall product already out there as well.
What is it that GE knows that the automobile manufacturers don't?
 
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