Residential Remodel/Rewire in MC

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Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Pulling any cable or conductor in more then one direction at a time will introduce at least some difficulty.

When someone is pulling on one end a second person better be pushing instead of pulling on the other end:)

Loaded question. Use MC-AP and listed boxes with MC Yokes inside. Use receptacles and switches with self grounding clips and I wouldn't have a problem with only about a 10% increase in labor. Using standard MC products but having proper boxes that are applicable to the stud application with the MC yokes and you should be able to get away with 50%. In my opinion, the 2 times more is thinking of boxes, connectors, mudrings and all the other things associated with higher end commercial. The biggest issue will be the learning curve and acquiring the right material. a homeowner is not going to go down to Home Depot and pick up the right stuff for a good MC install.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
You needn't include additional materials costs in your response, as I am proposing a labor-only quotation.

Thanks!

I would ask the HO if he/she stops at Kroger, Food Lion, Costco, Publix, etc. and picks up steaks on the way to the restaurant. Then asks the restaurant to cook them for him/her and only charge labor for cooking?:roll:
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
10% sounds optimistic, just additional time cutting and stripping could use up 10%.

Cutting and stripping shouldn't take any more time. Not with the proper tools. You do have more time pulling the cable and potentially more time tightening the clamp. But as I said, loaded question. If the owner wants MC, who knows, perhaps the studs are metal. Now, the difference is even less. Perhaps 20% would have been more accurate, but again, it is based on so many things.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
When you get into the Chicago area where EMT is required for residential in Chicago and many of the suburbs, you will find that the premium to switch from NM to EMT is 15 to 25%. That is assuming that the contractor pricing the EMT installation is one who always uses EMT. A contractor who almost always uses NM would have a much larger cost increase if he tried to do an EMT project.

I just did an inspection for some condos in our town because our inspector was on vacation. The EC used EMT and our code did not require EMT for the project. I was talking to him and their company only uses EMT and has success in getting jobs using EMT where NM is permitted.

I don't know how he can do that, as there is no question that EMT should cost more than NM, not a lot more, but more.

I can see an electrician not experienced in dwelling unit EMT installations taking 2 or 3 times as long as compared to NM.

I can also see the guys who always use EMT taking a lot longer to install NM than the guys who always install NM. The electrician on the job that I inspected said he would have no idea how to "rope" (common term for installing NM in our area) a dwelling unit.
 

BMacky

Senior Member
Location
Foster City, CA
I would never do a job where the owner furnishes all material.
What you have is an all labor job...so now with no material to markup...you have no protection on your labor.
You have zero wiggle room to be guessing at the estimated labor hours.
How many hours are you estimating using NM? Did you do an actual take-off, or unit price?

I did unit pricing. Let me correct myself: owner is providing all finish materials; rough materials are on me. There is a fairly good crawlspace, two sub-panel locations to pull from (one for kitchen and other is in the bedroom wing of the structure). So the home runs are not incredibly long. The HO has a concern for corrosion as the house in on an "island" in town, surronded on just about three sides since he's at the end of the island (end of a cul de sac where the waterways wrap around the property). The soil has a higher salinity than most areas around here as bay water is used to create the waterways in town. We're on the edge of the SF Bay.

The 2x labor rate over MC was the sort of "rule of thumb" I was looking for when posting. Seems to be a popular factor.
 

BMacky

Senior Member
Location
Foster City, CA
I question whether the HO is going to gain anything related to what he is concerned about here - especially with aluminum sheathed cable. Steel sheath maybe does gain some, but probably not enough to be worth investment. Steel sheath will be heavier and a little harder to handle making more labor necessary also.

Most MC will have twisted conductors inside which may better reduce EMF effects, but keeping all conductors of a circuit in same raceway or cable does a fairly effective job of that anyway.

Though you only asked about labor, use of MC will make cheap plastic outlet boxes go away, will also fill up KO's in panelboard faster as you will only get one cable in each hole, duplex connectors are possible but take up enough room not all KO's will be available, NM cables can generally have two cables enter a KO. Same for other enclosures where multiple cables may be entering. Securing cables may take more materials, more expensive materials, and/or time compared to NM cables. MC cable doesn't make as tight of bends as NM cable and it is harder to get to some places at times then NM cable is.

Appreciate the input here. This is the kind of feedback that I was looking for, as well as the other posts. I agree with the bend radius being reduced. I'm going to have to open more wall area which I discussed with the HO. I've run enough MC to know the pitfalls. As you mentioned about panelboards, that is a big concern as far as taking up space with connectors. Need to choose panelboards wisely.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
I did unit pricing. Let me correct myself: owner is providing all finish materials; rough materials are on me. There is a fairly good crawlspace, two sub-panel locations to pull from (one for kitchen and other is in the bedroom wing of the structure). So the home runs are not incredibly long. The HO has a concern for corrosion as the house in on an "island" in town, surronded on just about three sides since he's at the end of the island (end of a cul de sac where the waterways wrap around the property). The soil has a higher salinity than most areas around here as bay water is used to create the waterways in town. We're on the edge of the SF Bay.

The 2x labor rate over MC was the sort of "rule of thumb" I was looking for when posting. Seems to be a popular factor.

Owner providing finish materials often cause problems -- tamper proof recepts, AFCI/GFI protections required, and non listed luminaires -- certainly advise homeowner
 

J.P.

Senior Member
Location
United States
I pretty much only do commercial, but I wired two houses last year when it was slow.

I can honestly say that I'm faster with mc than nm. On just the stripping alone.

Have him get your mc on 1000 ft spools and it pulls easier than the little spools because it comes off straight. You can get 12/2, 12/3, 12/4, 12/9 whatever you want that way.

Use snap in connecters like arlington AST38 and landing boxes is easy. Im talking steel deep bracket boxes.


I hated hated hated those cheap plastic boxes and using nm on those houses.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
When pulling MC, an important thing to remember is it will pull easier in one direction.

Not true for all brands of MC. Smooth wound MC pulls fine in both directions. Wedge wound MC only pulls in one.

The one thing the OP hasn't mentioned is what kind of boxes he would have used for the NM installation. Plastic vs. metal would give very different base times compared to MC using metal boxes. One type of install where MC gets to be a real PITA is an old building with all the receptacles mounted in the baseboards. It can be a real beast getting MC to make those tight bends. Oh, and forget having cable enter both sides of your boxes with MC.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Not true for all brands of MC. Smooth wound MC pulls fine in both directions. Wedge wound MC only pulls in one.

The one thing the OP hasn't mentioned is what kind of boxes he would have used for the NM installation. Plastic vs. metal would give very different base times compared to MC using metal boxes. One type of install where MC gets to be a real PITA is an old building with all the receptacles mounted in the baseboards. It can be a real beast getting MC to make those tight bends. Oh, and forget having cable enter both sides of your boxes with MC.
I don't know how long they have been around, but I recently seen that Arlington has 90 degree "Snap 2 it" connectors - I'm guessing somewhat recently introduced as I have been to two supply houses that both had samples of them laying on the counter. Of course they are probably even more expense per opening compared to using NM cable and fitings, and not sure just how easy they would be to assemble into an existing hole for a flush mounted box application.
 

CT Tom

Member
Location
Connecticut USA
Labor x2-2.5 sounds about right.

Also, if the home/business owner is supplying materials, do a figure on what the materials will cost you, then figure your markup and add the markup to the quote to cover some lost time. Because you WILL have some.

Then also put a clause that lost time is billable for missing/delayed material etc.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I would never do a job where the owner furnishes all material.
What you have is an all labor job...so now with no material to markup...you have no protection on your labor.
You have zero wiggle room to be guessing at the estimated labor hours.
How many hours are you estimating using NM? Did you do an actual take-off, or unit price?

I would ask the HO if he/she stops at Kroger, Food Lion, Costco, Publix, etc. and picks up steaks on the way to the restaurant. Then asks the restaurant to cook them for him/her and only charge labor for cooking?:roll:


Labor x2-2.5 sounds about right.

Also, if the home/business owner is supplying materials, do a figure on what the materials will cost you, then figure your markup and add the markup to the quote to cover some lost time. Because you WILL have some.

Then also put a clause that lost time is billable for missing/delayed material etc.

Does this apply to only home owners? Or do you apply this right up the line to all customers - clear to heavy industrial?

Just curious. There are plenty of times where I will buy specific equipment, including wire, cable and conduit and give a list to the EC. Contract with the EC says he will provide all the rest of the material on a cost-plus - never under 10%, rarely over 15%. Never had an EC squawk yet.

I don't know if it applies, but I recently had some major surgery done to a pickup. Engine kit was $2500. The shop owner told me where I could buy the kit on the internet. Said the cost was the same to me as it would be to him. Labor was the same either way. Said his mark-up on material was 15% to cover his warranty. I gladly paid the 15% on the material.

Owner providing finish materials often cause problems -- tamper proof recepts, AFCI/GFI protections required, and non listed luminaires -- certainly advise homeowner
Sounds like a great idea to me. On the water in SF Bay - that sounds like major money. Why wouldn't one help him all you can?

ice
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
I don't know if it applies, but I recently had some major surgery done to a pickup. Engine kit was $2500. The shop owner told me where I could buy the kit on the internet. Said the cost was the same to me as it would be to him. Labor was the same either way. Said his mark-up on material was 15% to cover his warranty. I gladly paid the 15% on the material. ice
Once had a mechanic tell me that I could probably get the carberator I needed at Advance Auto about 50 dollars cheaper than he could get it through his source. Told him no thanks, I buy it from you it's yours and any problems for at least 90 days. I buy it it's my problem.
 

CT Tom

Member
Location
Connecticut USA
Applies to any customer, if it goes through my books, I make money on it. If a customer is suppling material my operating costs don't suddenly change do they?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Also, if the home/business owner is supplying materials, do a figure on what the materials will cost you, then figure your markup and add the markup to the quote to cover some lost time. Because you WILL have some.

The company I work for does large commecial / retail work and with many of the jobs the customers supply the lighting packages, sometimes the distribution and fire alarm as well.

We would not get the jobs if we added normal mark up to this equipment supplied by others.

When we used to build Lowes stores I think they provided almost everything. From fixtures to wirenuts.
 

CT Tom

Member
Location
Connecticut USA
The company I work for does large commecial / retail work and with many of the jobs the customers supply the lighting packages, sometimes the distribution and fire alarm as well.

We would not get the jobs if we added normal mark up to this equipment supplied by others.

When we used to build Lowes stores I think they provided almost everything. From fixtures to wirenuts.

All my work is home owners and small businesses. The one time I was involved in a large commercial job with fire/lighting packages, I know that the estimator was adding a % to the line item labor cost for those packages. We did get the job that I was privy to the estimate process so results vary.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Applies to any customer, if it goes through my books, I make money on it. ...

... We would not get the jobs if we added normal mark up to this equipment supplied by others. ....
Bob would be correct


... If a customer is suppling material my operating costs don't suddenly change do they?
I don't know what your business plan is.

Years back I worked for a mechanical contractor - commercial /industrial, heavy piping. He based his labor rates on - well - the cost of the labor, pickups, tools, secretarial staff, accounting, shop costs, insurance.

His mark up on material was warranty, pickup, delivery, (and cost of money) ~ 15% usually. If he did not buy the material, he just put in the hours for pickup and delivery.

I recall he would also do a deal where he bought the material (usually long lead time expensive equipment), half down on order, rest on delivery to site - as in pickup the check that day. Mark up on those was pretty low.

So, I am fairly sure there are business plans where the owner's agent can purchase material and the contractor can still make money.

So where am I going:
You got a guy with a house on the beach in SF Bay and he wants to spend money. My inclination is to help him out and do all I can to make sure he is happy doing it.

ice
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Customer supplying materials has never worked very well for me.

HO wants me to tell him what he needs, pick it up, and change for free if bad.

And on several small commercial jobs, the supply house wouldn't have something I needed, so I'd take out of my inventory, order replacement, put replacement back in my inventory.

These were all relatively small jobs, I can see where wiring a Lowe's etc. would be different.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Does this apply to only home owners? Or do you apply this right up the line to all customers - clear to heavy industrial?

Just curious. There are plenty of times where I will buy specific equipment, including wire, cable and conduit and give a list to the EC. Contract with the EC says he will provide all the rest of the material on a cost-plus - never under 10%, rarely over 15%. Never had an EC squawk yet.

I don't know if it applies, but I recently had some major surgery done to a pickup. Engine kit was $2500. The shop owner told me where I could buy the kit on the internet. Said the cost was the same to me as it would be to him. Labor was the same either way. Said his mark-up on material was 15% to cover his warranty. I gladly paid the 15% on the material.


Sounds like a great idea to me. On the water in SF Bay - that sounds like major money. Why wouldn't one help him all you can?

ice

Customer supplying materials has never worked very well for me.

HO wants me to tell him what he needs, pick it up, and change for free if bad.

And on several small commercial jobs, the supply house wouldn't have something I needed, so I'd take out of my inventory, order replacement, put replacement back in my inventory.

These were all relatively small jobs, I can see where wiring a Lowe's etc. would be different.
Electricians just seem to get themselves into trouble over letting customers supply things much easier then other professionals plus customers seem to want to bargain with electricians more so then other professionals, don't know why but it just seems to be that way. Mechanics seem to install parts they didn't sell all the time, yet they seldom are put to the test if something fails in short time.

Plumbers and HVAC guys however sell just about everything they install - no exceptions. But they make good profit doing so and don't mind too much coming back if there is a problem with something plus customers don't seem to mind paying more for the water to run or the heat or cooling to work. But that wiring that is buried in the wall is just too expensive to pay for something we generally don't even see and we must save in every way possible on that particular system of the house. Only when there is a total loss of power to the entire place do they seem to not care what it takes to get it back on, everything else is analyzed to death on how much will it cost and how can I cut those costs:(


The other thing different with auto mechanics vs electricians is auto mechanics can modify a vehicle and get better performance out of it or a particular feature of it anyway, or just plain make a portion of it better then the original manufacturer made it.

We try to do something like that with a lot of electrical equipment out there and we don't pass inspections because we have violated listings of products if we do such things to them. Also if our modification ends up resulting in an injury or death or is at least questionable that it may be part of the reason for the incident - we are likely going to have to defend our actions, yet someone gets into an accident in a modified car - it never seems to occur to anyone to drag the mechanic into any litigation.
 
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