Ground wire

Status
Not open for further replies.

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
It is a term most of have used at one time or another, but should not.

add: and that assumes you mean "ground".

It would be so much simpler if we re-named the conductor that goes from the outlet to the panel that is meant to carry only fault current the 'safety' conductor. It can do its job just fine without being connected to the earth.

Ground would mean earth. Dirt. The planet.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It would be so much simpler if we re-named the conductor that goes from the outlet to the panel that is meant to carry only fault current the 'safety' conductor. It can do its job just fine without being connected to the earth.

Ground would mean earth. Dirt. The planet.

That still leaves us with grounded conductor and grounding electrode conductor.

Without some major changes we will always have to be careful using the word 'ground'.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
That still leaves us with grounded conductor and grounding electrode conductor.

Without some major changes we will always have to be careful using the word 'ground'.

That would be fine if the earth were involved.

Using the NEC definition, the grounded conductor must be connected to the earth, as the NEC definition of ground is 'the earth'.

That means a floating neutral, like in some generators and inverters, is not a grounded conductor.

To be a grounding electrode, it must connect to the earth. Not a substitute for the earth, like a vehicle chassis.

You are correct, we need be specific when we talk about the word 'ground'.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
That would be fine if the earth were involved.

Using the NEC definition, the grounded conductor must be connected to the earth, as the NEC definition of ground is 'the earth'.

And by definition your 'safety conductor' would be just as connected to earth as the grounded conductor.

That means a floating neutral, like in some generators and inverters, is not a grounded conductor.

To be a grounding electrode, it must connect to the earth. Not a substitute for the earth, like a vehicle chassis.

I don't know if I disagree with you here or just don't understand where you are going with that. :huh:


There have been proposals to change equipment grounding conductor to equipment bonding conductor. I think that would be a good change yet the keep getting rejected.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
IMO they can use any word they want, it will still be confusing to many, especially if the same root word is used for a portion of other terms.

Grounded conductor
Grounding electrode
Equipment grounding conductor

Many get confused with those terms because they see ground in all of them and think they are all the same because of that.

Earthed conductor
Earthing electrode
Equipment earthing conductor

If we were to change to these terms or something similar I don't think the confusion level would be much different then it is now.

Then throw in some special situations like a corner grounded system or a two wire source, and the confusion gets even higher for some.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
How about this, just for a start:

Using 120/240

Neutral = Neutral Conductor or Grounded Neutral Conductor, depending on what it really is. Dispense with Grounded Conductor.

EGC > Change to Equipment Bonding Conductor

GEC and grounding electrode are fine just as they are, with 'ground' being defined as 'the earth'.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Not always. As I mentioned earlier, there are times when the neutral is not connected to earth, nor is the 'grounding' conductor and said 'grounding' conductor still acts as a safety measure just as if it were connected to the earth.
But if the neutral is not connected to earth you can't have a "grounded" system and you can't use the power for any system that is required to be a grounded system by the rules in 250.20.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
How about this, just for a start:

Using 120/240

Neutral = Neutral Conductor or Grounded Neutral Conductor, depending on what it really is. Dispense with Grounded Conductor.
Agree.

EGC > Change to Equipment Bonding Conductor
I'd prefer keeping Equipment Grounding Conductor and using it wherever appropriate. EGC has already worked its way into the lingo and is understood. I would dare say that all of us that care and know the difference between all the "grounds" use EGC already.

One thing for sure, the hodge podge we have now between bonding, bonded, grounding, equipment grounding has to go. Just like beta vs. vhs one standard needs to be chosen and get on with it.

GEC and grounding electrode are fine just as they are, with 'ground' being defined as 'the earth'.
Agree.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
I'd prefer keeping Equipment Grounding Conductor and using it wherever appropriate. EGC has already worked its way into the lingo and is understood. I would dare say that all of us that care and know the difference between all the "grounds" use EGC already. ...
I am one of those who prefer a change to the term Equipment Bonding Conductor". The instructors in Canada say this became much easier for the students to understand after they started using the term Equipment Bonding Conductor.
There are "public inputs" to make this change for the 2017 code so we will see if CMP 5 accepts them with a 2/3's majority this time. In the 2005 code cycle, my proposals to make this change were accepted by a majority of the members of CMP5, but since they were one vote short of the required 2/3's majority the proposals were reported as "rejected".
 

takelly

Member
Location
South dakota
The definition for "grounding conductor" was removed from the code in 2011 and "equipment grounding conductor" was left in. This was to help with the understanding of the terms, but I am still confused with all the different terms for grounding and bonding.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I am one of those who prefer a change to the term Equipment Bonding Conductor". The instructors in Canada say this became much easier for the students to understand after they started using the term Equipment Bonding Conductor.
There are "public inputs" to make this change for the 2017 code so we will see if CMP 5 accepts them with a 2/3's majority this time. In the 2005 code cycle, my proposals to make this change were accepted by a majority of the members of CMP5, but since they were one vote short of the required 2/3's majority the proposals were reported as "rejected".
Sounds like there are similar discussions amongst the CMP members as we have been having here on the forum from time to time.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
The definition for "grounding conductor" was removed from the code in 2011 and "equipment grounding conductor" was left in. This was to help with the understanding of the terms, but I am still confused with all the different terms for grounding and bonding.
Gotta sort it out for yourself mate. The gurus in the towers aren't really dedicated to making things easier, that would mean no more big party every three years and no more guaranteed book sales.

Keep the electricity in the insulated black and white wires, make sure that any electricity that is supposed to be in the white insulated wire stays in the white insulated wire, and make sure that if any electricity gets out of the black insulated wire the breaker will trip. Call it grounding, call it bonding, call it equipment grounding, call it Protective Earth that is what they do in other countries, it all works the same.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You have to understand the logic of why each of the different conductors under scrutiny here exists. Once you have that figured out it doesn't really matter what they are called, you know their function.

Protective earth? How many people think driving a ground rod is acceptable over a proper equipment grounding conductor? Change EGC to PE and you don't change the thought process of those that think the rod is suitable for the purpose, in fact you may even increase their assurance that it is the right thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top