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Thread: Unlabeled equipment

  1. #1
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    Unlabeled equipment

    we are working on a piece of equipment that doesnt have any labels for arc flash/PPE mainly because its an older store. The panel is 600a 480v panel that has a lot of hVAC in panel. we are going to turn off power to install new breaker. My question is

    1. what ARC FLASH requirements would one use for PPE? IS it Table 103.7c14Aa?
    2. what equipment would this qualify?
    3. we plan on turning off all breakers to HVAC system one at a time before turning off power to panel then reverse when installed. is there any advise for turning off energized equipment then turning everything back on?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannyb View Post
    we are working on a piece of equipment that doesnt have any labels for arc flash/PPE mainly because its an older store. The panel is 600a 480v panel that has a lot of hVAC in panel. we are going to turn off power to install new breaker. My question is

    1. what ARC FLASH requirements would one use for PPE? IS it Table 103.7c14Aa?
    2. what equipment would this qualify?
    3. we plan on turning off all breakers to HVAC system one at a time before turning off power to panel then reverse when installed. is there any advise for turning off energized equipment then turning everything back on?
    megger everything first before energizing.

    without knowing the incident energy available, figure
    out a way to remotely close the breaker, unless you
    have access to a 40 cal suit.

    i clamped on a kant twist welding clamp once, threw
    a piece of mule tape thru a small pulley lashed to a
    sprinkler line, and stood 20' away, and pulled it closed.

    be creative.
    ~New signature under construction.~
    ~~~~Please excuse the mess.~~~~

  3. #3
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    LOL, I first read that title and thought you were needing some sort of listing from the United Nations...

    If the equipment is not labeled for Arc Flash hazard, technically the owner is ALREADY in violation of OSHA rules for providing for an electrically safe workplace, so that should be taken care of FIRST before anyone works on it. They need to have someone come out and perform a risk assessment, then come up with labeling for their equipment, which would need to have the PPE stated on it.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jraef View Post
    LOL, I first read that title and thought you were needing some sort of listing from the United Nations...

    If the equipment is not labeled for Arc Flash hazard, technically the owner is ALREADY in violation of OSHA rules for providing for an electrically safe workplace, so that should be taken care of FIRST before anyone works on it. They need to have someone come out and perform a risk assessment, then come up with labeling for their equipment, which would need to have the PPE stated on it.
    the service is an exisiting service probably 10 yrs old. the 600a service panel we need to access is feed from 3000a MDP. so You would think risk assessiment is needed by owner even if we turn off entire service. just asking. is there an reference in nfpa of this requirement? i would like to research so we can tell customer of situation and i can better explain the concern.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannyb View Post
    the service is an exisiting service probably 10 yrs old. the 600a service panel we need to access is feed from 3000a MDP. so You would think risk assessiment is needed by owner even if we turn off entire service. just asking. is there an reference in nfpa of this requirement? i would like to research so we can tell customer of situation and i can better explain the concern.
    it's probably not really a "service" panel. just a panel board.

    I think it is unlikely that you will find this in the task tables so someone will need to evaluate what the IE is so you can determine what you have to do.

    You might be surprised at how low the IE comes out, or how high.
    Bob

  6. #6
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    Starting with the 2002 NEC in Article 110.16, all service panels, load centers, switchboards etc. are now REQUIRED to have Arc Flash warning labels on the outside. The NEC doesn't actually mandate the assessment, but how will you know what the label needs to say without getting one done on old existing equipment?

    In addition, OSHA safety standard 1910.335(b) requires that worker be warned and notified of arc flash hazards, a requirement that CAN be satisfied by signage (or, I guess, you could hire someone to stand next to the gear and notify everyone...).

    If the equipment is already de-energized, why are we even discussing arc flash hazards? As I read your post, you are going to BE turning off breakers. That requires an assessment of the risk of doing so and PPE commensurate with that risk assessment. It might be that you just need PPE1 or 2, but you have no way of knowing if there are no labels and if there are no labels, the owner is already in violation of safe work practices.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jraef View Post
    Starting with the 2002 NEC in Article 110.16, all service panels, load centers, switchboards etc. are now REQUIRED to have Arc Flash warning labels on the outside. The NEC doesn't actually mandate the assessment, but how will you know what the label needs to say without getting one done on old existing equipment?

    In addition, OSHA safety standard 1910.335(b) requires that worker be warned and notified of arc flash hazards, a requirement that CAN be satisfied by signage (or, I guess, you could hire someone to stand next to the gear and notify everyone...).

    If the equipment is already de-energized, why are we even discussing arc flash hazards? As I read your post, you are going to BE turning off breakers. That requires an assessment of the risk of doing so and PPE commensurate with that risk assessment. It might be that you just need PPE1 or 2, but you have no way of knowing if there are no labels and if there are no labels, the owner is already in violation of safe work practices.
    110.16 just says certain types of equipment need to be marked to warn qualified persons of potential arc flash hazards. It does not say you must state incident energy level or any specific details, just that there must be a warning.

    The most detail I have ever seen (or placed on myself) marked on equipment is the available fault current level required in 110.24. IMO such marking in itself still is somewhat meaningless but maybe sort of gets the attention of both qualified and non qualified and makes them think a little about what those high amp levels may mean. 110.24 does make it easier for inspector to determine if you have high enough interrupting rating on devices - but they still need to know what is series rated with what, and they still don't necessarily know if you done calculations correctly either, but unless you have a large source and short supply conductors, you often are OK anyway with the "standard" rated devices.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jraef View Post
    Starting with the 2002 NEC in Article 110.16, all service panels, load centers, switchboards etc. are now REQUIRED to have Arc Flash warning labels on the outside. The NEC doesn't actually mandate the assessment, but how will you know what the label needs to say without getting one done on old existing equipment?

    In addition, OSHA safety standard 1910.335(b) requires that worker be warned and notified of arc flash hazards, a requirement that CAN be satisfied by signage (or, I guess, you could hire someone to stand next to the gear and notify everyone...).

    If the equipment is already de-energized, why are we even discussing arc flash hazards? As I read your post, you are going to BE turning off breakers. That requires an assessment of the risk of doing so and PPE commensurate with that risk assessment. It might be that you just need PPE1 or 2, but you have no way of knowing if there are no labels and if there are no labels, the owner is already in violation of safe work practices.

    the service is on and we need to add a piece of equipment that needs to go into the 600a service. we will turn off power to that panel but was looking to advise on ppe

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannyb View Post
    the service is on and we need to add a piece of equipment that needs to go into the 600a service. we will turn off power to that panel but was looking to advise on ppe
    If you are going to turn off power to anything you will expose workers to, the only time PPE (for voltage and arc flash) would be needed is while checking to verify power is off.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    If you are going to turn off power to anything you will expose workers to, the only time PPE (for voltage and arc flash) would be needed is while checking to verify power is off.
    I was searching around for some images to make this point and found this, which is actually 100% WRONG!
    It is in an article from a Canadian safety company; you would think they would want to show how it SHOULD be done...

    http://jobsafety.seton.ca/dont-turn-...ectrical-work/
    (image was too large to embed here.)
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