This is why electronic meter are so dangerous

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schlum

Member
Location
laval
Sorry in advance for my english, i'm french.

This comment will answer most of the numerous questions electricians have concerning the electronic meter and why appliances in the house are damage by overvoltage



The meter industry made an unbelievable mistake in making those electronic meter. In fact it is a design flaw by a change in electric philosophy.


Explanation


The old meter was made to act like a Faraday cage, the new one is made to act like a containment chamber. Why they did that ? I presume that is a constraint to put electronic in the meter.

The old meter was made with a glass cover with a metal ring and this ring made contact with the base metal connected to the ground. In addition, there is 2 metal plates called surged arrester( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8vOmL44C7sQcWxNcWFCejM1WGs&authuser=0) at the back of the meter at the 10h10 position that also make contact with the base metal. So when a voltage surge happen, it will be divert to the ground. The old meter is acting like a faraday cage protecting all the inside and also part of all the electronics of the house. Of course, it's not a perfect protection and a direct hit by lightning will pass through. But this do most of the job for a very little price.


For the new meter, to be a containment chamber, they replace the glass cover by a polycarbonate one, the glass was too dangerous because the cover can explode sending glass pieces all around, the glass cannot contain the pressure when voltage surge happen inside and its explode. No more metal ring and the 2 surge arrester( they put 2 MOV inside but they don't do the job) are gone (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8vOmL44C7sQVnJkbGZnVWNkNzg&authuser=0). Of course in that way, your appliances are in danger to blow by voltage surge.



How the surge arrester on meter work
http://www.google.ca/patents/US3735259


3 incidents happened to prove what i said :


Palo Alto, August 25 2011, a surge happened for more than an hour, 80 smart meters caught on fire and burned out, the 120 old meters touched by the same surge were all ok.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2011/09/04/power-surge-raises-questions-about-smartmeters


Forest Standard, Ontario, october 31 2013, 70 smart meters blow out and some really explode and send pieces all around.

http://smartmeterharm.org/2014/06/2...e-blows-out-60-70-smart-meters-november-2013/


Sumerland, November 26 2014, 69 smartmeters burn or explode
http://www.localssupportinglocals.ca/blogs/kevin-proteau/power-surge-summerland-were-meters-involved


We now know that the voltage surge is the problem for those meters, what cause voltage surge ?

Lightning strike, live 25kv cable broke and touching the 120/240v cable, branches in storm making contact between those cables, defective transformer, bad taps on transformer, etc. The voltage surge from the line is not happening very often and that is why nobody is aware of the real danger or suspect it


So no matter what, all electronics meters from any companies are dangerous for fire and explosion if any of those cases happened
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I think it is important to distinguish between surge (limited time event such as nearby lightning, VAR switching, failure that bridges lines until OCPD kicks in)
and voltage overload (i.e. wrong tap setting) for a long period of time. The protection required for the two types of event are very different.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A meltdown because of a weak connection on a lug or poor meter plug in contact will still heat things up inside the meter can whether new or old style meter is installed, so I really don't know that this is all that big of an issue, why can't the meter can contain such heating is maybe the question to ask.
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
A meltdown because of a weak connection on a lug or poor meter plug in contact will still heat things up inside the meter can whether new or old style meter is installed, so I really don't know that this is all that big of an issue, why can't the meter can contain such heating is maybe the question to ask.


Back of the electronic meter is now in plastic, the old one was in bakelite, that is the difference between the 2
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Back of the electronic meter is now in plastic, the old one was in bakelite, that is the difference between the 2


But why does a overheated lug seldom burn down the house now all of a sudden these smart meters seem to be burning down houses?

They both have excess heating inside the same cans, and is suspended from same jaw hardware in either instance as well?

Maybe there is just more smart meter failures in general but not all are burning down the house?
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
Newer, old style 'dumb' meters have had plastic bases and covers for quite awhile.

At the moment utilities began to install the meter with plastic back, return meters to the shop jumped from 30 a year to 50 a week, they just don't publicize it
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
At the moment utilities began to install the meter with plastic back, return meters to the shop jumped from 30 a year to 50 a week, they just don't publicize it

So you agree it is not the fact it is an electronic meter that is the issue?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
At the moment utilities began to install the meter with plastic back, return meters to the shop jumped from 30 a year to 50 a week, they just don't publicize it

Wait a minute did you make a mistake or are you really trying to say the return rate went from 30 per year to 2,600 per year?

That is kind of hard to believe as the costs associated with that would raise a flag with the bean counters.
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
But why does a overheated lug seldom burn down the house now all of a sudden these smart meters seem to be burning down houses?

They both have excess heating inside the same cans, and is suspended from same jaw hardware in either instance as well?

Maybe there is just more smart meter failures in general but not all are burning down the house?


They replaced 25 to 40 years installed meter without checking the base and the jaws, they used students to do the job, what are you expecting from them ?
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
So you agree it is not the fact it is an electronic meter that is the issue?

No this is 2 differents problems we are talking of.

When you have a single meter on fire, it is probably hot spots cause. In batch of 40 or 70, it is the meter design
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
Wait a minute did you make a mistake or are you really trying to say the return rate went from 30 per year to 2,600 per year?

That is kind of hard to believe as the costs associated with that would raise a flag with the bean counters.

Yes i am serious, plastic melt around the 4 pins of the meter. this include the burn meter by overvoltage
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
No this is 2 differents problems we are talking of. When you have a single meter on fire, it is probably hot spots cause. In batch of 40 or 70, it is the meter design
This may be confusing correlation and causation. It is definitely possible that the meter design is faulty. It is also very possible that many of the existing meters had been left undisturbed in old sockets and the process of installing new meters was uncovering failing connections within the sockets themselves.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Yes i am serious, plastic melt around the 4 pins of the meter. this include the burn meter by overvoltage

So you maintain that ten meters each work day show up for repair?

I have to say that seems a bit unbelievable, how many meters are in service?
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
So you maintain that ten meters each work day show up for repair?

I have to say that seems a bit unbelievable, how many meters are in service?

there are 3,5 millions meters in Quebec but i have to say that about 1 million electronic were installed before they began the new project to replace all of them
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
there are 3,5 millions meters in Quebec but i have to say that about 1 million electronic were installed before they began the new project to replace all of them
So out of 1 million installed they have a failure rate of 0.26% per year? That looks fantastic from where I'm sitting.
 
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schlum

Member
Location
laval
So out of 1 million installed they have a failure rate of 0.26% per year? That looks fantastic from where I'm sitting.

From your point of view maybe, but for the customer to have his house burn or his kid receive pieces of meter when the meter explode, it is unacceptable. Just search the net for fire house and appliance blown, you will have your answer. You neglect completely tne security by your response and jeeez that is irresponsible
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
Ahhh....I can't stand it! Gotta put in my 2 cents. Where are the statistics that electronic meters cause fires? Glass covers? Metal rings? Sounds like "sky is falling" to me. Older mechanical meters were pretty rugged, since they had little or no electronics, but...I have a problem with those who say electronic meters cause fires. I've changed out hundreds of failed electronic meter and none showed any signs of damage that could have caused a fire. What's different from mechanical meters? The meter can/socket is pretty simple. Overvoltage protection, whether from surge suppressors or varistors will not cause fires when they fail. Nothing inside the meter to burn. Non-combustible plastic insulation. Most "meter fires" are caused by poor connections, overheated socket jaws, etc. I think any increase in meter problems are due to the meter change-out itself. When a meter is changed, the jaws may have been compromised over the years. When disturbed during a change-out, loose jaws or poor connection may now become an issue. I'm not a fan of "Smart Metering", but I really doubt they are any more dangerous. The only added features are communication capabilities and data recording. Kinda like "global warming". If you say it's happening, it must be true. OK...rant over!
 

schlum

Member
Location
laval
Ahhh....I can't stand it! Gotta put in my 2 cents. Where are the statistics that electronic meters cause fires? Glass covers? Metal rings? Sounds like "sky is falling" to me. Older mechanical meters were pretty rugged, since they had little or no electronics, but...I have a problem with those who say electronic meters cause fires. I've changed out hundreds of failed electronic meter and none showed any signs of damage that could have caused a fire. What's different from mechanical meters? The meter can/socket is pretty simple. Overvoltage protection, whether from surge suppressors or varistors will not cause fires when they fail. Nothing inside the meter to burn. Non-combustible plastic insulation. Most "meter fires" are caused by poor connections, overheated socket jaws, etc. I think any increase in meter problems are due to the meter change-out itself. When a meter is changed, the jaws may have been compromised over the years. When disturbed during a change-out, loose jaws or poor connection may now become an issue. I'm not a fan of "Smart Metering", but I really doubt they are any more dangerous. The only added features are communication capabilities and data recording. Kinda like "global warming". If you say it's happening, it must be true. OK...rant over!

My source is a meter shop technician, one of my friend, he repaired or expertised about 300,000 meters in his life so if you think you have the answer with only a few hundreds meters, think again, you have seen nothing.

I just found important to advise, all of you, of the danger of those meters, you do what you want with those informations. Forewarned is forearmed:
 
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