Complying with manufacturer's instructions - CU wire

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PetrosA

Senior Member
If a product's instructions state: "Use 6-8 AWG, 75C copper wire to connect to supply circuit." Would it be a violation to run #4 SER AL to a JB near the connection point, transition to CU cable and supply the product?

This is for a Siemens EV charger, if that makes any difference and the reason for considering AL cable is that the run will be about 125' from the panel and obviously, an aluminum feeder will be a lot cheaper for the customer.
 

GoldDigger

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If a product's instructions state: "Use 6-8 AWG, 75C copper wire to connect to supply circuit." Would it be a violation to run #4 SER AL to a JB near the connection point, transition to CU cable and supply the product?

This is for a Siemens EV charger, if that makes any difference and the reason for considering AL cable is that the run will be about 125' from the panel and obviously, an aluminum feeder will be a lot cheaper for the customer.
I notice that it does not say anything about what you must use to wire the circuit, just what you must attach to the terminals of the device. Your problem is solved by one j-box and some splices. :)
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
How do you propose to comply with NEC Art110-3(B) Installation and use? Listed and labeled equipment SHALL BE INSTALLED SND USED IN ACCORDANCE with any instructions included in the listing and labeling.
In addition regarding the way the product has been listed there also may be consideration of NEC Art 110.14 Electrical connections should CU lugs have been supplied. But, this doesn't mean that just because ALCU lugs were supplied that you are automatically allowed to use AL wire as an option.
 

JRW 70

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Location
Eastern Central Missouri
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Testing and Engineer
Services to homes

Services to homes

Think of it this way, most aerial drops are Al.
Then somewhere it transitions to CU. So just go
back to Al for the longest part of the run and
re transfer to CU.

So there really should be no problem so long as
the equipment is terminated in CU. Is there ?
(in terms of code)
 

GoldDigger

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How do you propose to comply with NEC Art110-3(B) Installation and use? Listed and labeled equipment SHALL BE INSTALLED SND USED IN ACCORDANCE with any instructions included in the listing and labeling.
In addition regarding the way the product has been listed there also may be consideration of NEC Art 110.14 Electrical connections should CU lugs have been supplied. But, this doesn't mean that just because ALCU lugs were supplied that you are automatically allowed to use AL wire as an option.

Easy. You just look at the exact wording of the installation instructions and comply with it. It does not say that you must use copper to connect to the breaker, just that you must use copper to connect to the circuit. Very limited scope covering only the actual wire that connects to the equipment terminals.
The size can be taken as advice on the ampacity of the rest of the circuit, but even that is not explicit enough to cause any concern.
In some cases the specification of 75C wire is because the terminal area is expected to get very hot. Not likely in this case though.
Reread post #2.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
I'm not concerned about whether aluminum will do the job, I know it will. The concern is whether the phrasing in the instructions forces me to use copper the entire run. I've installed kilns and hot tubs where the instructions explicitly stated that the entire run had to be copper, so that was a no-brainer. These instructions also specify a full size ground, which limits my cable choices to 6/2 MC or #4 SER (NEMA 5-60 receptacle).
 

FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
pete

I just watched a video on the siemans versicharge EV charger and they stated in there 8/2 w/ ground and showed the install with same. You may need to reconsider wire type if this is being mounted in a wet location due to NM's rating however.

Jeff
 

Jraef

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Easy. You just look at the exact wording of the installation instructions and comply with it. It does not say that you must use copper to connect to the breaker, just that you must use copper to connect to the circuit. Very limited scope covering only the actual wire that connects to the equipment terminals.
The size can be taken as advice on the ampacity of the rest of the circuit, but even that is not explicit enough to cause any concern.
In some cases the specification of 75C wire is because the terminal area is expected to get very hot. Not likely in this case though.
Reread post #2.
I agree, because when you UL list something, and you don't want to pay extra to have it tested with Cu or Al wire (it requires another te$t), you simply state that the connection must be to Cu and you are done, the rest is up to the user. But that has ONLY to do with the connections, not the entire circuit run. It's also possible by the way that the terminal block will not accept #4 anyway.

I'm sure the 75C comment is also there just to help prevent someone, who doesn't understand the complexities, from using 90C wire of a smaller gauge. By saying 75C, they must follow the NEC and use that, which stops the annoying phone calls to tech support where they have to explain to some homeowner why his 90C rated wire doesn't get him off the hook for sizing.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
The instructions are kinda goofy in that they're for both the hardwired and plug in versions. Especially with the plug in version, what do they possibly care what kind of wire it's connected to since the cord cap and receptacle are both NEMA types?

Freeball, did that video you watched show them using 8/2 NM with reduced ground? That would be against their own instructions :eek: I figured that if I have to use 8/2 or 6/2 it would have to be MC to get the full size ground.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Easy. You just look at the exact wording of the installation instructions and comply with it. It does not say that you must use copper to connect to the breaker, just that you must use copper to connect to the circuit. Very limited scope covering only the actual wire that connects to the equipment terminals.
The size can be taken as advice on the ampacity of the rest of the circuit, but even that is not explicit enough to cause any concern.
In some cases the specification of 75C wire is because the terminal area is expected to get very hot. Not likely in this case though.
Reread post #2.
By being ,"easy" so what you are saying is that "Use 6-8 AWG, 75C copper wire to connect to supply circuit" is just a suggestion and not required that it doesn't say that you "must use copper wire." Interesting. It still has not been confirmed if the lugs a CU or AlCu. And if the device has been supplied with CU lugs if AlCu are UL listed as an option on the device.
75degC rated wire is as given.The only devices that I can think of that required 90degC rated wire be use but applied at 75degC are 100% rated breakers when applied properly at 100% of their ratings.
 
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GoldDigger

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I will try it one more time:
If the instructions had said you have to use copper #8 wire to connect to the service, would you say that meant that you had to use #8 copper for all of the feeders and service conductors?
All their statement refers to is the wire that is immediately connected to its terminals.
Beyond that it is up to the NEC.
 

JRW 70

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Central Missouri
Occupation
Testing and Engineer
Reiteration of my previous statement

Reiteration of my previous statement

Nearly ALL service drops these days are AL.
there may be a conversion at the mast or the
AL continues to the lugs on the service panel.
This is usually where the CU transitions occur
after fuse or CB. So I sympathize with trying to
do everything to the exact interpretation of the
install instructions, from a practical point the
unit will not know the difference if the voltage
drop is accounted in the AL segment prior to the
return to a few feet of properly sized CU.

I would bet the distribution line (12.4Y7.2kV) or
whatever the MV service feeding the transformer is
ACSR or at least had some aluminum involved in
getting the power to the residence.

In my opion (which means nothing) this proposed
install will last longer than the equipment it is attached
to. If they are CU lugs and they get CU then there really
shouldn't be a problem.

Just my opinion.

JR
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I will try it one more time:
If the instructions had said you have to use copper #8 wire to connect to the service, would you say that meant that you had to use #8 copper for all of the feeders and service conductors?
All their statement refers to is the wire that is immediately connected to its terminals.
Beyond that it is up to the NEC.
I guess I missed the fact where it required a CU feeder. I must have miss understood that it was limited to CU conductor being connected to the device. From my perspective it would be a no brainer to make your connection to the device per the instructions and listing using CU conductor and as long as that is complied with then you can make your transition to AL. Now, where do you want to go from here?
 

FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
yes it was 8/2 w/ solid ground looked like standard nm to me you can see the video on youtube


The instructions are kinda goofy in that they're for both the hardwired and plug in versions. Especially with the plug in version, what do they possibly care what kind of wire it's connected to since the cord cap and receptacle are both NEMA types?

Freeball, did that video you watched show them using 8/2 NM with reduced ground? That would be against their own instructions :eek: I figured that if I have to use 8/2 or 6/2 it would have to be MC to get the full size ground.
 

rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
Just note:

The engineer (or salesman) has acquired everything he knows from a book. :(:lol:

Often context is in translation from French to Japanese to Spanish to Chinese, and finally back to English.

Adding too much information to instructions only confuses people. :?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Just note:

The engineer (or salesman) has acquired everything he knows from a book. :(:lol:

Often context is in translation from French to Japanese to Spanish to Chinese, and finally back to English.

Adding too much information to instructions only confuses people. :?

It's Siemens, it went from German to British English, to American English. Even worse...
 
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