Pool Pump GFCI Protection

Status
Not open for further replies.

czars

Czars
Location
West Melbourne, FL
Occupation
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor
I attempted to install GFCI protection on a Hayward pool pump the other day using a Cutler Hammer BR GFCI breaker. The pump is computer controlled and would go through the pre-startup sequence with no problem. However, as soon as the pump itself tried to start, the GFCI breaker would trip with a ground fault. After consulting with Hayward, I discovered that they require that a Siemens GFCI breaker be used to provide ground fault protection, but they could not or would not say why. The pump works fine with a Siemens QF220 GFCI breaker.

Can anyone shed some light on why a Siemens breaker works and a Cutler Hammer breaker does not when both at ID'd to trip with a 5 ma fault?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
IMHO, the basic reason is that the UL guide provides a bunch of must-trip cases and a small number of specific must-not-trip cases, but does not say anything general about nuisance trips. Exactly the same circuit and component values layed out differently on a PC board can behave differently in pulse or RF cases.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
........... GFCI protection on a Hayward pool pump the other day using a Cutler Hammer BR GFCI breaker. ...................., I discovered that they require that a Siemens GFCI breaker be used to provide ground fault protection, but they could not or would not say why.

Can anyone shed some light on why a Siemens breaker works and a Cutler Hammer breaker does not when both at ID'd to trip with a 5 ma fault?

It sounds to me like Hayward pool pump is in cahoots with Siemens. Instructions from Hayward on what they require/will work sure would avoid a lot of frustration-cussing when your brand of GFCI breaker doesn't work.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
This is just a couple of educated guesses.

1). Defective GFCI from Eaton/C-H

2). Siemens make some panels/control centers for the motor controls. Some systems are conplete with both controls and panels, but no OCPD. I ran into this with a ATS for a generator. I had to do some digging to find out what brand breakers to put in it. I don't think the brand really has anything to do with the operation of the product, it's just they're obligated to Siemens (or whoever) to only suggest/require their brand of breaker.

I would probably have tried another C-H breaker just to be sure it wasn't defective. If they were truly tested/listed for Siemens, it should have been in the spec sheet or instructions.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
It sounds to me like Hayward pool pump is in cahoots with Siemens. Instructions from Hayward on what they require/will work sure would avoid a lot of frustration-cussing when your brand of GFCI breaker doesn't work.
I don't know if it would be "in cahoots"... Siemens would not know or care about the existence of Hayward, it's like saying an Elephant is in cahoots with the spider mite that lives on a fly that landed on the elephant's butt.

It's far more likely that Hayward has a circuit in their pump that gives them fits by causing nuisance tripping on most GFCI breakers, and they found a solution in that for some unknown reason, the Siemens breaker doesn't. They probably have no idea why, but it solves THEIR problem so they don't have to spend more time and money researching the issue, they just kick the can down the road by putting the burden on you to find a way to use a Siemens breaker. It's a C.S. way out of the problem, but it gets it out of their hair.

If this is a variable speed pump, as many of them are now, it's a known issue that VFDs can cause nuisance tripping of GFCI breakers. VFDs create common mode noise on the line, which looks like non-returning current flow to the GFCI. There isn't a lot you can do about it but you can try to eliminate the worst case issues. Check ALL of your grounding connections, make sure nothing is loose. The Hayward pumps I have seen have the VFD mounted directly to the motor, so you can't do anything about those connections (another common problem), but the pump must be solidly grounded and in pool areas, there can be a lot of corrosion. If that doesn't help, and you can't find a way to use the Siemens GFCI, you can install a shielded isolation transformer ahead of the VFD, but down stream of the GFCI. That helps a lot, but it makes people scratch their head when they see a 1:1 transformer.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I am not arguing with any of you guys, but when I hear hoof beats I think about horses first, not zebras. So far I'm not ready to look for a problem that goes beyond the standard north american four footed equine.

GFCI's are rock solid these days, and unlike AFCI's can be tested quite objectively, so I'm not ready to jump over the hedge and explore an answer to the problem that can't be checked with the tools I carry in my truck.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I am not arguing with any of you guys, but when I hear hoof beats I think about horses first, not zebras. So far I'm not ready to look for a problem that goes beyond the standard north american four footed equine.

GFCI's are rock solid these days, and unlike AFCI's can be tested quite objectively, so I'm not ready to jump over the hedge and explore an answer to the problem that can't be checked with the tools I carry in my truck.

Are you talking about what might be "fertilizer" left from the south end of a north bound equine?:huh:
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Are you talking about what might be "fertilizer" left from the south end of a north bound equine?:huh:
No.

Well yes.... sort of....the babble that comes from hot tub tech support is that kind of stuff.

As far as GFCI's causing problems... I want more info before I look beyond good trouble shooting and blame the breaker.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
an Elephant is in cahoots with the spider mite that lives on a fly that landed on the elephant's butt.

Your complete answer demonstrates experience, and skilled specialization, the only response that peaked my interest, not consistent with Forum F.U.D. (Fear Uncertainty & Doubt).

However, such efforts are rare and seem unrewarded, by a Forum that prohibits use of URL links to Business Names when signing your post.
 

cpinetree

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I attempted to install GFCI protection on a Hayward pool pump the other day using a Cutler Hammer BR GFCI breaker. The pump is computer controlled and would go through the pre-startup sequence with no problem. However, as soon as the pump itself tried to start, the GFCI breaker would trip with a ground fault. After consulting with Hayward, I discovered that they require that a Siemens GFCI breaker be used to provide ground fault protection, but they could not or would not say why. The pump works fine with a Siemens QF220 GFCI breaker.

Can anyone shed some light on why a Siemens breaker works and a Cutler Hammer breaker does not when both at ID'd to trip with a 5 ma fault?

Can't shed any light, but often run into the same thing.

When using Hayward controller panels. The panels are listed for BR, Homeline, and Siemens breakers, I can buy the BR and Homeline for about 3/4 or less the price of a Siemens, but the Siemens breaker is the only one that holds with the Hayward pumps(in the long run).

Sometimes the Homeline will hold for 3 or 4 months but inevitable we ended up changing it out to a Siemens. Now we don't waste the time. We bill for and install the Siemens breakers.

As a side note Hayward is re-badging the Siemens breaker to sell along with their panels. I know this, as we had a pool company supply one to see what the difference might be.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
If that doesn't help, and you can't find a way to use the Siemens GFCI, you can install a shielded isolation transformer ahead of the VFD, but down stream of the GFCI. That helps a lot, but it makes people scratch their head when they see a 1:1 transformer.

I'm scratching my head on this one.

Would that 1:1 transformer shield the GFCI protection of the pump on the secondary side?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I'm scratching my head on this one.

Would that 1:1 transformer shield the GFCI protection of the pump on the secondary side?
In a word, yes.
In more words, this might be considered acceptable enough since it would be downstream of much of the wiring as well as any plug and receptacle connection.
 

billk554

Member
I have been using the Hayward pump on a square d ground fault breaker for 10 years now and no trouble. I oversized the wire to the outlet, ran 10's for the 20 amp circuit. rmc all the way. it just works all the time. of course now that I said this I expect different results this spring.
 

cpinetree

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I have been using the Hayward pump on a square d ground fault breaker for 10 years now and no trouble. I oversized the wire to the outlet, ran 10's for the 20 amp circuit. rmc all the way. it just works all the time. of course now that I said this I expect different results this spring.

Yes, but is it a variable speed pump?

Never any problems with the straight HP rated pumps, its the variable speed ones that are problematic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top