Dedicated Circuits in Kitchen Remodel

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I'm contracting some electrical work in a couple kitchens we're remodeling in my duplex. The first electrician to review my plans said I needed dedicated circuits for the disposal, dishwasher, fridge, hood, and microwave according to 2014 NEC. He also said that on top of the dedicated circuits I needed a separate lighting circuit plus two 20-AMP small appliance circuits specifically for recepticles.
So for fridge, elec range, hood, microwave, dishwasher, disposal, lighting, & 2x small appliance circuit, that's 9 circuits... I only have a 12 slot panel for ea unit and am on a budget.

Is this $90 per hour electrician blowing smoke? I've scoured the NEC 2014 and can't find anything saying a disposal / dishwasher can't share the same circuit. I don't want to hire an electrician who doesn't know the code. I've been using this forum a lot, but this is my first posting. Please help.

I had the following 4 circuit plan in my original electrical layout:
Circuit 1 - 20 AMP (2400W capacity)- Small Appliance 1 - Fridge / Microwave - 1920W max usage
Circuit 2 - 20 AMP (2400W capacity) - Small Appliance 2 - Dishwasher / Disposal - 2196W max usage
Circuit 3 - 15AMP/240V (4800 Capacity) - Dedicated Oven - 3690W max usage
Circuit 4 - 20 AMP (2400W Capacity) - Kitchen Lights, Kitchen Recepticles, Gas Cooktop, Cooktop Hood - 474W plus load from outlets
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Is this $90 per hour electrician blowing smoke?

$90 is not nearly as much as it sounds once you put overhead and training on top of it.

I've scoured the NEC 2014 and can't find anything saying a disposal / dishwasher can't share the same circuit.

Nothing that direct however did you look at 210.23(A), depending on the equipment that section could require separate circuits.

I had the following 4 circuit plan in my original electrical layout:
Circuit 1 - 20 AMP (2400W capacity)- Small Appliance 1 - Fridge / Microwave - 1920W max usage
Circuit 2 - 20 AMP (2400W capacity) - Small Appliance 2 - Dishwasher / Disposal - 2196W max usage

Circuit 4 - 20 AMP (2400W Capacity) - Kitchen Lights, Kitchen Recepticles, Gas Cooktop, Cooktop Hood - 474W plus load from outlets

The 'capacity' is not the only factor.


Some other code sections to look at that may apply are 210.52(B)(1) and 422.33(B)(4)
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Look at the sections in the electrical code and if they apply to your installation please let us know. Are you sure you are on 2014 electrical code?

Having the one or two GD/DW circuit your only concern?
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
You need 2 small appliance circuits that serve the counter tops, they can't serve the dishwasher or disposal. The dishwasher and disposal circuiting will depend on the manufacturers installation guidelines. I have no problem sharing them on one circuit though. The fridge and 120V receptacle for the gas range ignitor can be on one of the small appliance circuits. A dedicated circuit for the microwave is normal for microwave/hood styles, but not required if it's just a counter-top unit. A simple range hood doesn't need a dedicated circuit and is just usually tied to the lighting circuit.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
A simple range hood doesn't need a dedicated circuit and is just usually tied to the lighting circuit.

If it is a cord and plug connected range hood an individual branch circuit is required.

Now I have never installed a cord and plug connected one but that rule is in 422.33(B)(4).
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
If it is a cord and plug connected range hood an individual branch circuit is required.

Now I have never installed a cord and plug connected one but that rule is in 422.33(B)(4).

Which I always thought was dumb and I don't install them that way either. I've seen range hoods shared with the dishwasher and disposal too.
 

edlee

Senior Member
And you may not need new lighting circuits if it is a remodel. It depends on the condition and load of the existing lighting circuit(s) and what additional load you might add. Oh, and the arc-fault issue too may come into play.
 

JDB3

Senior Member
Just don't forget the local code. Often saying: dishwasher, disposal, refrigerator, stove hood (they say, in-case it is changed to a space savings microwave), etc.
 

donaldelectrician

Senior Member
Which I always thought was dumb and I don't install them that way either. I've seen range hoods shared with the dishwasher and disposal too.



I used to do a lot of very high end Ressi , and when it cam to range hoods it was all ways common to install a circuit . Some required 2 circuits .
They used to use a lot of MR bulb lighting .





Don
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I had the following 4 circuit plan in my original electrical layout:
Circuit 1 - 20 AMP (2400W capacity)- Small Appliance 1 - Fridge / Microwave - 1920W max usage

All good here, but the fridge doesn't have to be on the SABC, it can be on it's own dedicated 15 or 20A circuit. The microwave is fine unless it's an over the range type with fan.

Circuit 2 - 20 AMP (2400W capacity) - Small Appliance 2 - Dishwasher / Disposal - 2196W max usage

Neither the dishwasher nor the disposal can be on the SABC.

Circuit 3 - 15AMP/240V (4800 Capacity) - Dedicated Oven - 3690W max usage

Circuit 4 - 20 AMP (2400W Capacity) - Kitchen Lights, Kitchen Recepticles, Gas Cooktop, Cooktop Hood - 474W plus load from outlets

The kitchen receptacles all have to be on one or both the SABC (with exceptions for inside cabinets, and one or two others)

comments/answers in red



$90 an hour, figure out how much your work as a contractor or engineer comes out to an hour. When people see $90 or whatever, they assume (wrongly) that is what the tradesman is actually making. Training, license, insurance, tools, on-going education, overhead, profit, self-employment tax, etc. all have to be figured in that price.
 
Thanks for the replies, I was unfinishing the previous homeowners finished basement today and haven't had a chance to get to my computer till now. Hidden behind the ceiling I found that the PO had merged all the basement circuits and just tucked them on top of a beam (no junction box) in a big birds nest of wires and twist connectors. Not a big surprise I couldn't find any permit history for the renovation.

Thank you for pointing me to 210.23, and more importantly for my issues, 210.52B. I'll need to reconfigure my electrical plans and reduce the change scope in order to keep the labor within budget. Perhaps go back to gas ovens.

Our electricians pull their permits from the state and they just need to meet NEC 2014.
 
Thanks, it was a lot of clicking on the NEC webpage to get over to 422.16. If the recepticle is accessible, it will be difficult to hide a cord. I also don't know of any 42" island hoods that are designed to terminate in a recepticle, so I don't think that's really even an avenue I can go down.

I think it's likely I'll need to put in new 24 slot panels. Since I'm adding counter space in the kitchens, I think the inspector will require the 2 20 amp circuits for those new counters so that alone would bump me out of capacity for the 12 slot panels I currently have. We'll see.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
...

I think it's likely I'll need to put in new 24 slot panels. Since I'm adding counter space in the kitchens, I think the inspector will require the 2 20 amp circuits for those new counters so that alone would bump me out of capacity for the 12 slot panels I currently have. We'll see.
Read 210.52(B)(1) carefully. It does not specify that the 2-20A circuits serve only one countertop area. In fact, the 2-20A circuits can serve all receptacles* the rooms where food is stored, prepared, and/or served.

* Receptacles covered in 210.52(A) and (C) and refrigeration equipment.

Be advised 2 SABC circuits is the minimum, not a recommendation. Heavy loading could demand more than 2-20A SABC circuits.

Another consideration instead of replacing panels is to use tandem breakers in the existing panels... but you'd have to do so compliantly. A qualified electrician should be able to determine if it can be done compliantly.

Also be aware that required AFCI's have increased under the 2014 Code... and those requirements kick in when adding or modifying existing circuits. Might make the tandem breaker suggestion moot, as I do not know of any tandem AFCI's.

Also note under 2014 Code, a GFCI is required for the dishwasher.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thanks, it was a lot of clicking on the NEC webpage to get over to 422.16. If the recepticle is accessible, it will be difficult to hide a cord. I also don't know of any 42" island hoods that are designed to terminate in a recepticle, so I don't think that's really even an avenue I can go down.
Accessible and readily accessible are two separately defined terms in the NEC.
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I think this General Contractor needs to listen to his electrician since he has no knowledge of what is required per code.
 
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