No AFCI's in New Hampshire

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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
In my opinion, legislatures should avoid amending nationally recognized codes and standards. It usually results in unfunded mandates, unintended consequences, and misinterpretation. I am quite certain there is a process for stake holders to amend or modify codes and standards at the state or local level.

It's just as easy to have above-code mandates added to state law as it is to have things amended out. This too happens quite often.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I think the more you see the NEC become a sales tool of the manufacturers the more you will see this type of action. It would be wise of the NFPA to take note.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
In my opinion, legislatures should avoid amending nationally recognized codes and standards. It usually results in unfunded mandates, unintended consequences, and misinterpretation. I am quite certain there is a process for stake holders to amend or modify codes and standards at the state or local level.

It's just as easy to have above-code mandates added to state law as it is to have things amended out. This too happens quite often.
25 years ago I may have agreed with you - now I'm not so sure I do. NEC keeps ignoring some of it's own purpose and scope to some extent in recent years:(
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
In my opinion, legislatures should avoid amending nationally recognized codes and standards. It usually results in unfunded mandates, unintended consequences, and misinterpretation. I am quite certain there is a process for stake holders to amend or modify codes and standards at the state or local level.

It's just as easy to have above-code mandates added to state law as it is to have things amended out. This too happens quite often.


I disagree. The NEC is trying to be national code document, but in reality that is impossible to do at an intimate level. Every part of our country is different and in turn what might work for one area might not for another. Take NYC. They always have different codes because the standard NEC and NFPA documents (especially fire protection) would just not do it. The new York amendments for example require a 20amp dedicated circuit in the living room for an AC, and if this didn't exist Im sure a rise in fires would occur or tripping breakers. But outside of New York where everything is central air (usually) such a requirement becomes a waste serving no purpose.


In this case perhaps not that many local differences drive this but one must remember the very nature of AFCIs. Not only is there the cost factor, but should people really be grieving over UL listed appliances tripping these?



IMO if those doing the amendments are truly competent and knowledgeable I see no harm in doing so because it actually helps the area it serves where the standard off the shelf NEC may fail to do so.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Every generation of code nerds, like us, have either felt they were in possession of the best codes of any generation or, in a era of the worst codes.

I have a bunch of old IAEI documents dating back to the early 30's where members were saying the same thing about manufacturers back then. They claim the codes of the 20's were so much better. I recently came across and article written in the 70's that claim the NEC has declined since WWII when the code was "pure".

I imagine 20 to 30 years from now there will be code nerds, like us, praising and/or bashing the infamous codes of the 2010's, like they have all through history.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I disagree. The NEC is trying to be national code document, but in reality that is impossible to do at an intimate level. Every part of our country is different and in turn what might work for one area might not for another. Take NYC. They always have different codes because the standard NEC and NFPA documents (especially fire protection) would just not do it. The new York amendments for example require a 20amp dedicated circuit in the living room for an AC, and if this didn't exist Im sure a rise in fires would occur or tripping breakers. But outside of New York where everything is central air (usually) such a requirement becomes a waste serving no purpose.


In this case perhaps not that many local differences drive this but one must remember the very nature of AFCIs. Not only is there the cost factor, but should people really be grieving over UL listed appliances tripping these?



IMO if those doing the amendments are truly competent and knowledgeable I see no harm in doing so because it actually helps the area it serves where the standard off the shelf NEC may fail to do so.

With a State legislature though it is a matter of which side of the issue sells their case better, and can be a topic non of the legislators really know much about. Good or bad that is the way it is with lawmakers.
 
I see all the rants about. AFCI. What about the good.things they do. I had a customer call about a breaker trip on a existing circuit I had recently placed a afci on during a reno. I told the customer it was probably just a loose connection in the area we did not work on as it has worked for over a year (that is what I hoped) I would be there to repair by the end of the day. Well the customer did not want to wait and called me that it was in fact a loose back stab and fixed it himself. I offered to take a look to make sure that it was all good but it was not part of the reno so he figured I would be charging and so fixed himself.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I see all the rants about. AFCI. What about the good.things they do. I had a customer call about a breaker trip on a existing circuit I had recently placed a afci on during a reno. I told the customer it was probably just a loose connection in the area we did not work on as it has worked for over a year (that is what I hoped) I would be there to repair by the end of the day. Well the customer did not want to wait and called me that it was in fact a loose back stab and fixed it himself. I offered to take a look to make sure that it was all good but it was not part of the reno so he figured I would be charging and so fixed himself.


There is nothing GFP and lowering the magnetic trip will do that an AFCI will do. Eliminating back stabbed outlets would a low cost step forward.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I see all the rants about. AFCI. What about the good.things they do. I had a customer call about a breaker trip on a existing circuit I had recently placed a afci on during a reno. I told the customer it was probably just a loose connection in the area we did not work on as it has worked for over a year (that is what I hoped) I would be there to repair by the end of the day. Well the customer did not want to wait and called me that it was in fact a loose back stab and fixed it himself. I offered to take a look to make sure that it was all good but it was not part of the reno so he figured I would be charging and so fixed himself.
Yet there are those that try to create a loose connection like that to do some of their own testing of the AFCI device and can't get them to trip - there doesn't seem to be enough consistency in these devices across the board, except for frustration from troubleshooters.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Every generation of code nerds, like us, have either felt they were in possession of the best codes of any generation or, in a era of the worst codes.

I have a bunch of old IAEI documents dating back to the early 30's where members were saying the same thing about manufacturers back then. They claim the codes of the 20's were so much better. I recently came across and article written in the 70's that claim the NEC has declined since WWII when the code was "pure".

I imagine 20 to 30 years from now there will be code nerds, like us, praising and/or bashing the infamous codes of the 2010's, like they have all through history.

You are a history buff as such you know that often these that protested were later found to be right.

The line keeps moving and that would happen faster without views from both sides being heard.

Can you honestly say AFCIs have been worth the cost?

It would have been just as effective to go full GFCI. A technology that is already mature and plays well with utilization equipment.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
In my opinion, legislatures should avoid amending nationally recognized codes and standards. It usually results in unfunded mandates, unintended consequences, and misinterpretation. I am quite certain there is a process for stake holders to amend or modify codes and standards at the state or local level.

It's just as easy to have above-code mandates added to state law as it is to have things amended out. This too happens quite often.
I agree with the Wire brothers I and K on this one.

Every generation of code nerds, like us, have either felt they were in possession of the best codes of any generation or, in a era of the worst codes.

I have a bunch of old IAEI documents dating back to the early 30's where members were saying the same thing about manufacturers back then. They claim the codes of the 20's were so much better. I recently came across and article written in the 70's that claim the NEC has declined since WWII when the code was "pure".

I imagine 20 to 30 years from now there will be code nerds, like us, praising and/or bashing the infamous codes of the 2010's, like they have all through history.
Sure, but that is because everybody starts with what they have today vs. where they started.

If you never wired a MWBC before 210.4(B) (it used to be know as The Edison Circuit by those old, old timers) there's no way you could picture a world without it, but we had pert' near a century of reliable wiring before it.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
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