Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 122

Thread: Pentair Pool Pump GFCI trips

  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    1,922
    and to verify, its a gfci cb and not a afci or combo cb ?

    how funny, from 2015
    Note to Hayward engineers, if you can't design a product that doesn't trip a GFCI in 2015 go work at a freaking McD's.
    fyi, some time ago there was a post here asking about the ferrite ring in the bathroom fan unit. its there to suppress motor RF noise. ferrite rings on the hots may also help in pool pump gfi issues if RF is the cause.

    and from what i can see, if the pump makes RF noise it cannot impact other safety equip. Pentair should be held responsible if their crud is creating noise that trips gfi's.
    Last edited by FionaZuppa; 07-05-17 at 03:41 PM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    San Francisco, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,774
    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    modern day MOV's should be leaking in the uA range, not mA.

    HF noise on the line is very interesting. i would be curious to see the results if you tied the EGC to a 10ft ground rod very close to pump EGC.
    and/or
    tie a 600v 0.1uf with a 10k resistor in series from each 240 hot leg to a ground rod, as close to pump as possible.

    the pump is electronically controlled multi-speed? perhaps triac based, and if they switch fast that noise is a pita to some gfci's.

    next best thing is to scope the wires in FFT mode (load side) close to the gfci, see if you can find HF there. you can isolate using the same RC snubber.

    but considering pool gear needs gfi, pentair should have their act together if their crud is creating HF noise on the wires.
    No it's not going to be triac based, it's a VFD.

    Common mode noise is always going to seek to return to it's source. In this case, the source will be the DC bus of the VFD, the noise is being created in the motor windings by the VFD pulses and is expressed onto the motor frame. So it has to flow from the motor frame back to the VFD DC bus on the ground plane. Any restriction of that HF noise on the way means it bleeds out into other ground paths in trying to get back, that's where the issue lies with the GFCI. It sees that current flow on the ground path that is not accounted for in the power flow path and reacts to it, assuming it is leakage to ground (which in a way, it is). So driving a ground rod etc. is not going to change that.

    Could Pentair have done a better job of designing the system so that this doesn't happen? Maybe. But we don't know that they didn't, and the root of the problem is that someone didn't follow the explicit instructions on wiring up the pump. For example they may have had detailed requirements for how the grounding was to be done, but it was installed like every other pool pump that the installer had done in the past and although it meets NEC requirements, it created a new problem.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________
    Many people are shocked when they discover I am not a good electrician...

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    1,922
    but its likely not DC leakage? if its RF then there are several ways to try and squash it. how about adding a choke at the pump, ~1-2mH in size inline with the egc, along with ferrite ring? sure, a choke in mH in that size wire will be big. 150kHz & 1mH makes ~1kΩ
    Last edited by FionaZuppa; 07-05-17 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Elkridge, MD
    Posts
    65
    I've been involved with the DC region's pool industry for 20+ years and have been witnessing Pentair VS pumps tripping GFCI breakers since they introduced the pumps to the market. Our company has a small department that specializes in electrical installation for pools and other outdoor related projects. We wire on average 200+ per year. I've used every brand breaker multiple times except GE. I don't have a lot of experience with Hayward since there are not a lot of pool builders using them but Pentair is by far the most frequently used followed by Jandy.

    Pentair had Siemens make a breaker that they claim to trip at 6 ma instead of the 4-6 ma range. It is only approved for installation in the Pentair control system enclosures.
    Jandy put out a service memo stating they've tested their VS pumps on all breakers (1" frame) and the Siemens proved to be the most reliable.
    I've found that the Siemens results in less tripping with the Pentair and Stayrite pump (made by Pentair now) but not had many problems with the Jandy VS pumps.
    I was using CHBR breakers but had to go back on 50+ pools last year to swap the CHBR GFI breakers with Siemens (I was able to return them to reduce that pain). I was put in touch with an engineer at CH who was knowledgeable of the issues with the VS pumps on the GFI breakers and he sent me a case. Some breakers from that case have been used on jobs close to us and sure enough they tripped.
    Had another job with a brand new Stayrite pump and the existing CHCH GFI we connected it to tripped. Now installed a Siemens 60A hot tub disconnect and swapped the 260GFI with a 220GFI to hopefully correct the issue.

    I've been told by a builder who have had several VS pumps tripping on the Siemens and the pumps replaced a few time under warranty that Pentiar will not warrant the pumps unless they install the Pentair breakers. They did that and the pumps are still tripping.

    I've noticed that several of the jobs where VS pumps cause tripping are at the end of streets or on cul-de-sacs (near the end of the power company's line). I'm wondering if that may have something to do with this.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    183
    I have had similar problems with Pentair and Hayward variable speed pumps. Hayward finally told me that the pump electronics puts noise back on the line that some GFCI breakers can not handle. For whatever reason, the Siemens GFCI breakers have not been bothered by the noise. There a likely ways to ID the noise and then filter it out, but all that takes time and costs money. For customers that do not have a Siemens panel to install a Siemens GFCI in, I install the proper breaker size and mfg into the existing (non-Siemens) panel and follow it with a 50A GFCI SPA panel to provide the GFCI protection. This has worked every time I have had the problem.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    32,183
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    I'm experiencing this now. I don't wire a lot of pools (1-3/ year). Homeowner said pool company left me a replacement breaker to change it out. I haven't been there yet and assumed it was a replacement GFCI breaker. I'll be going there tomorrow and will see what they left me.

    I'm interested to hear others' experiences.
    I bet they left you a different brand gfci.... This stuff is ridiculous. Hayward pumps say that only a Sq. D gfci works and another manufacturer says only Seimens will work.

    When we do pools we find out from the pool company what brand is needed because it is a hassle to deal with later. May as well avoid trouble and now they can't blame you for the issue.

    They need to fix the motors to work properly.
    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
    I can't help it if I'm lucky



  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    1,922
    Quote Originally Posted by czars View Post
    I have had similar problems with Pentair and Hayward variable speed pumps. Hayward finally told me that the pump electronics puts noise back on the line that some GFCI breakers can not handle. For whatever reason, the Siemens GFCI breakers have not been bothered by the noise. There a likely ways to ID the noise and then filter it out, but all that takes time and costs money. For customers that do not have a Siemens panel to install a Siemens GFCI in, I install the proper breaker size and mfg into the existing (non-Siemens) panel and follow it with a 50A GFCI SPA panel to provide the GFCI protection. This has worked every time I have had the problem.
    my own spa, uses this same setup. 50A cb in main, 50A gfi Eaton in sub panel located near the hot tub. distance between sub and main is ~100ft in wire (buried in pvc). however, my spa does not have fancy speed control, simple two sets of pumps that run at low or full speed, but electronic controls.

    just for the learning experience, i would stick a choke inline with the egc at the pump.

    the makers could likely add a ferrite and choke and the problem would perhaps never surface.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Longmont, Colorado, US
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    my own spa, uses this same setup. 50A cb in main, 50A gfi Eaton in sub panel located near the hot tub. distance between sub and main is ~100ft in wire (buried in pvc). however, my spa does not have fancy speed control, simple two sets of pumps that run at low or full speed, but electronic controls.

    just for the learning experience, i would stick a choke inline with the egc at the pump.

    the makers could likely add a ferrite and choke and the problem would perhaps never surface.
    What size ferrite did you use?

    Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Elkridge, MD
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    I bet they left you a different brand gfci.... This stuff is ridiculous. Hayward pumps say that only a Sq. D gfci works and another manufacturer says only Seimens will work.

    When we do pools we find out from the pool company what brand is needed because it is a hassle to deal with later. May as well avoid trouble and now they can't blame you for the issue.

    They need to fix the motors to work properly.
    Could not agree more.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    1,922
    Quote Originally Posted by vincentvigil View Post
    What size ferrite did you use?

    Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
    i dont have a tripping issue.
    my next step would be to FFT scope the lines near gfi to see what the RF/noise looks like.

    but perhaps just those that snap-clamp on. $1.33 at allied. put them on the hots and egc.


    and, have any of these lying around? just put the pri or sec winding in series with the EGC at pump, just as a test, see if the gfi tripping issue goes away. if it does then get a 1mH coil in proper awg size. 14ga and bigger will make a large coil, but if that's what it takes then so be it. a surplus store should have these old xfrmers for like $1.
    Last edited by FionaZuppa; 07-05-17 at 07:03 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •