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Thread: garage door opener

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    Remember it isn't the garage door opener or the sump pump that requires GFCI protection, it is the fact there is a 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle in a place mentioned in 210.8.

    I think it was either 2005 or 2008 NEC that they removed all the exceptions for receptacles for "dedicated appliances". I think a big reason was they were finding many of the end users were finding out that particular receptacle wouldn't "nuisance trip" like the protected ones do, so they were plugging more then just the "dedicated appliance" into them and defeating the purpose of protecting people from electric shock risk.
    I understand the reasons why. I'm looking at this from a "nuisance trip" point of view. How many times do you think a GDO is going to nuisance trip before her husband removes the GFCI and replaces it with a duplex receptacle ? I'm asking it in this specific way because I would bet that in 90% of the cases the husband is going to change out the GFCI rather think there's a GF problem with a GDO. A receptacle is a couple of $$ whereas a GDO is several hundred. From my experience they'll always take the cheap way out.

    Would you rather that mother in the car have to get out and get a little wet that one time to get into the house or would you rather see her get electrocuted by something in the garage because it wasn't protected by GFCI like it was supposed to be? She could just as easily been in the store and it started to rain before she went out to the car.
    OK. You've changed my scenario a bit but I'll bite. Tell me what in the garage could possibly become energized if the GDO has a ground fault problem ? Yes, if it starts to rain when the mother is still at the super market - that's the breaks. If the GD doesn't go up when she gets home and it happens on a regular basis she's not going to put up with that and will encourage her husband to do something unscrupulous.

    All I'm suggesting is that we (our industry that is) come up with a better plan to solve this issue. Besides, how often have you seen a GDO develop a ground fault problem ? I don't think I've seen one yet.

  2. #12
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    Fortunately for us in NJ we can still use the exceptions for the GFCI rules prior to the 2008 changes that removed the exceptions. I have yet to hear of any NJ residents getting electrocuted by a sump pump receptacle that is not GFCI protected.
    Rob

    Moderator

    All responses based on the 2014 NEC unless otherwise noted

  3. #13
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    I don't see the point of requiring a GFCI on an overhead door opener.
    The receptacle is in the ceiling and not accessible from the floor without a ladder.

    I know it's a requirement, but what am I missing? I just doesn't make sense to me.
    Tim
    Master Electrician
    New England
    Yesterday's Technology at Tomorrow's Prices

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldstar View Post
    I understand the reasons why. I'm looking at this from a "nuisance trip" point of view. How many times do you think a GDO is going to nuisance trip before her husband removes the GFCI and replaces it with a duplex receptacle ? I'm asking it in this specific way because I would bet that in 90% of the cases the husband is going to change out the GFCI rather think there's a GF problem with a GDO. A receptacle is a couple of $$ whereas a GDO is several hundred. From my experience they'll always take the cheap way out.

    OK. You've changed my scenario a bit but I'll bite. Tell me what in the garage could possibly become energized if the GDO has a ground fault problem ? Yes, if it starts to rain when the mother is still at the super market - that's the breaks. If the GD doesn't go up when she gets home and it happens on a regular basis she's not going to put up with that and will encourage her husband to do something unscrupulous.

    All I'm suggesting is that we (our industry that is) come up with a better plan to solve this issue. Besides, how often have you seen a GDO develop a ground fault problem ? I don't think I've seen one yet.
    When that husband is doing his honey-do projects in that garage and plugs his power tools into the ceiling outlet for the GDO that doesn't trip, is the kind of activity that prompted the code making panel to decide the ceiling outlet needs GFCI protection.

    Owners have been removing "troublesome" GFCI's before those exemptions were removed from code and will continue to do so if it looks like a solution to them, whether they be in the garage, the basement, outside, in the kitchen won't matter. Most think they are a circuit breaker and have no idea what they actually do. I get calls about nuisance trips and they ask if they can put in a "bigger breaker" all the time.

  5. #15
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    garage door opener

    I have a wood shop in my garage and also work on my own cars. All kind of stuff running on GFCI-protected circuits. A beer fridge there too.
    I honestly cannot remember ever having a nuisance trip.
    My point being is that I feel nuisance tripping is a pretty weak argument for not using or removing GFCI protection.
    Now afci.....that's another discussion entirely.

    ETA: I also have a trouble light reel mounted on the ceiling plugged into the garage door opener receptacle. A good reason to have that receptacle GFCI protected.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by retirede View Post
    I have a wood shop in my garage and also work on my own cars. All kind of stuff running on GFCI-protected circuits. A beer fridge there too.
    I honestly cannot remember ever having a nuisance trip.
    My point being is that I feel nuisance tripping is a pretty weak argument for not using or removing GFCI protection.
    Now afci.....that's another discussion entirely.

    ETA: I also have a trouble light reel mounted on the ceiling plugged into the garage door opener receptacle. A good reason to have that receptacle GFCI protected.
    You and I don't have compromised tool cords or extension cords, and when they get that way we do fix them. We also don't have crossed neutral and EGC's in any kind of rigged up equipment we have.

    Until the handymen and DIY's learn what GFCI is all about they will continue to avoid using them whenever possible.

    I have noticed in some places people will plug things into the "standard" receptacle and avoid using the GFCI receptacle, though they don't realize the GFCI is protecting the other receptacle as well.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    You and I don't have compromised tool cords or extension cords, and when they get that way we do fix them. We also don't have crossed neutral and EGC's in any kind of rigged up equipment we have.

    Until the handymen and DIY's learn what GFCI is all about they will continue to avoid using them whenever possible.

    I have noticed in some places people will plug things into the "standard" receptacle and avoid using the GFCI receptacle, though they don't realize the GFCI is protecting the other receptacle as well.
    Agree 100%
    I wouldn't describe trips caused by those factors as nuisance trips. But as you say, they don't know any better.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by retirede View Post
    Agree 100%
    I wouldn't describe trips caused by those factors as nuisance trips. But as you say, they don't know any better.
    IMO there is no such thing as a nuisance trip, the device trips for a reason.

    But to the end user any trip is a nuisance trip, and when their item works while plugged into one outlet but trips when used on another one that is also a nuisance (to them).

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I think a big reason was they were finding many of the end users were finding out that particular receptacle wouldn't "nuisance trip" like the protected ones do, so they were plugging more then just the "dedicated appliance" into them and defeating the purpose of protecting people from electric shock risk.
    If end users are smart enough to figure out that the ceiling receptacle is not GFI protected and then stupid enough to plug in appliances that would probably cause a GFI to trip, how can the CMP's prevent that ? If we look at the purpose of the Code :

    90.1 Purpose.
    (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is
    the practical safeguarding of persons and property from
    hazards arising from the use of electricity. This Code is not
    intended as a design specification or an instruction manual
    for untrained persons.
    (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered
    necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and
    proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially
    free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient,
    or adequate for good service or future expansion of
    electrical use
    .
    There's nothing there that indicates the Code is intended to protect stupid people from doing stupid things. If we start down that road they'll end up GFCI and AFCI protecting everything. Just my opinion.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldstar View Post
    If end users are smart enough to figure out that the ceiling receptacle is not GFI protected and then stupid enough to plug in appliances that would probably cause a GFI to trip, how can the CMP's prevent that ? If we look at the purpose of the Code :

    There's nothing there that indicates the Code is intended to protect stupid people from doing stupid things. If we start down that road they'll end up GFCI and AFCI protecting everything. Just my opinion.
    we are already on that path though, not saying I agree with all the content of the code. Don't get me started on AFCI protection, it might be a good concept but they don't have the device made yet to accomplish that goal and are pushing what they currently have so they can get some return on what research and development they have so far The manufacturers of said devices have the code making panel wrapped around their finger.

    GFCI protection, I have little issue with elimination of "dedicated outlets" and have seen refrigerators/freezers in garages or unfinished basements that were shocking people when there was component failures and maybe a compromised EGC in the cord that weren't on GFCIs, or even the appliance repair guy tells HO that the GFCI is the problem so they call me and I have to find the fault in the appliance. GFCI was simply doing what it was intended to do in that case. I was initially against the elimination of dedicated outlets not being GFCI protected until I had seen first hand a few failures that GFCI either did or could have protected people from shock hazards. That freezer of spoiled food because the power was lost is nothing compared to someone being electrocuted. If you want to know the freezer isn't cold buy some kind of alarm/monitor for it, there are other possible failures that can also make it not cold in there.

    I also don't feel we ever really needed GFCI protection on drinking water fountains, don't think it hurts to have them but don't see the need for it to be required, extending commercial kitchen's to include all receptacles is somewhat questionable IMO, and the one that really takes the cake was the recent dishwasher in the dwelling unit. That trigger to require that one wasn't even about shock hazards.

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