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Thread: The hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    LEDs should not be placed into commercial application without specification item "lamp shall not blink upon failure, and failed lamp shall not repeatedly flash upon power up"

    Commonality between LEDs and CFLs: They're both prone to misapplication, because, most of them specifically disapprove enclosed fixtures and enclosed fixtures are far more common than enclosed rated lamps.

    The outcome is the same. Reduced lamp life.


    Commonality between LEDs and some induction: While failing HPS sodium can be annoying, it's tolerable. The most common cause of outage for LED and induction is ballast failure. Unfortunately, not all LED ballast engineers did not incorporate non-blinking fault mode. They can act erratic and blink or strobe for a long time without killing itself within a few days like CFL. They can exhibit temperature dependent failure such as working normally, but blinking at a turn signal pace after a few hours of burning at ambient over 75F. Without specifying a non-blink requirement, failing LED ballast can blink extremely annoying and demand an immediate service call.
    We installed an LED farm light a few years ago. 5 year warranty, failed @ 3. Replaced it last year. Last night I get a message that the replacement is blinking and this morning he called again to describe the rate. Any guesses? Temps have been high.

    Suppose there is a connection somewhere?
    Tom
    TBLO

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
    Most of the lights in our house are LED. Including the kitchen spotlights.
    Admittedly, we have been here just a bit over ten years and not a single LED failure. Maybe we just got lucky.
    Ok, but what physical size, real lumen output and wattage are they?

    Output drivre is one of the most common failure point on loud speakre amplifires, but I've never seen the output drivre fail on portable personal radio so I'm telling you again, things do not scale without significant differences.

    Extremely important details that are often overlooked:
    Incandescent lamp output does not scale linearly with wattage in common household range of light bulbs because of real world constraints. For the same reason, 120v incandescent lamps are roughly 20% more efficient than 240v lamps. Lower wattage 240v bulbs and decorative lamps have always given LED marketers a huge favor in developing sales pitch

    You can see that there's more to it than translating the language when transferring LED sales pitch from European or Asian catalogues to US catalog.

    LEDs are much flatter and they can provide double digit lumens per watt down to the milliwatt range.

    Looking at a 40W ordinary white light bulb (called A55 in that catalogue because its in millimetre), the difference is quite a bit.
    460 lm for 120v vs 385 lm for 240v
    American 60W bulb at 800 lm has more than double the output of a British 40W bulb.

    British 25W Candelabra only puts out 180 lm which is less than 1/4 of US 60W standard bulb.


    An LED bulb compared to a 25W European bulb wouldn't be a challenge even with LED technology from a decade ago. There were many that didn't get anything close in real lumens and used fiddled up claim to bump up the advertised brightness by using 6500K(LED flashlight color) LEDs and boosting it by night vision factor. So a 2.5W, 6500K 75lm made of inversely parallel wired LEDs passively ballasted with a series resistor lamp might have been touted as 25W equivalent.

    An LED lamp in the foot print of an ordinary light bulb that puts out legacy 60W American bulb equivalent of sustained 800 lm that can be used in enclosed fixture and provide 8,000 + hrs life in the field remains a challenge even in late 2017. A down light is considered semi enclosed. A fixture that you can not stick your finger onto the actual bulb is considered "totally enclosed".
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    Ok, but what physical size, real lumen output and wattage are they?

    Output drivre is one of the most common failure point on loud speakre amplifires, but I've never seen the output drivre fail on portable personal radio so I'm telling you again, things do not scale without significant differences.
    I can only tell you what my experience with LEDs has been over the past 30 years.
    Yours may differ.
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
    I can only tell you what my experience with LEDs has been over the past 30 years.
    Yours may differ.
    Dodging every single important questions.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    Dodging every single important questions.
    We have 1650 lumens in our kitchen from 3 GU10 LEDs and zero failures.
    What else do you want to know?
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
    We have 1650 lumens in our kitchen from 3 GU10 LEDs and zero failures.
    What else do you want to know?
    Are those the ones you had since 2007 ish? You didn't say the wattage.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    Are those the ones you had since 2007 ish? You didn't say the wattage.
    180W total.
    Bright kitchen.
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
    180W total.
    Bright kitchen.
    I don't see why that matters.

    I would like you to share the details, like approximate year of mfg, wattage, brand and model of the three GU10s whose combined name plate output adds up to 1650 lm. Is that a bit more clear ?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    I don't see why that matters.

    I would like you to share the details, like approximate year of mfg, wattage, brand and model of the three GU10s whose combined name plate output adds up to 1650 lm. Is that a bit more clear ?

    he'd like that, mr. B... hop to it!

    while you are at it, we'd like to see receipts for those
    lights as well. wanna make sure no hanky panky is
    afoot.

    do you have video of those lights burning, so we can
    all verify every single minute of illumination, please?

    when i put 5 dozen can lights in my house a few years
    back, they were supposed to last forever. some burned
    out, and started strobing.

    and they were premium LED's. 'bout $75 per element
    at the time.

    i was beside myself. i went over to the shop, and took
    a new LED element out of the dozen spares i bought when
    they came out with version 2, and replaced it.

    then i threw the old one away.

    and the best part? i really didn't give that much of a chit.
    nothing lasts forever.......

    except his burning hatred of LED lamps.

    get back to us with those reciepts, now. we are dying to know.
    ~New signature under construction.~
    ~~~~Please excuse the mess.~~~~

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulthrotl View Post
    <moved to spam, LEED AP, CALCTP-AT, and general nuisance bin>
    then i threw the old one away.
    what would compel someone to give combined lumen of three specific lamps but provide the wattage for something as abstract as the whole room anyhow?


    Quote Originally Posted by ptonsparky View Post
    We installed an LED farm light a few years ago. 5 year warranty, failed @ 3. Replaced it last year. Last night I get a message that the replacement is blinking and this morning he called again to describe the rate. Any guesses? Temps have been high.

    Suppose there is a connection somewhere?
    Nothing can be made fault proof but there is definitely a strong preference for the inevitable failure to happen in a certain way. It's nothing but poor LED ballast design when it goes into blinking spazz or beacon mode upon failure. There should be some sort of passive protection to prevent this. At the very minimum, it wouldn't continue for more than a day or two never resume after a power cycle. This is something that can be resolved by specification requirement prohibiting this failure mode.

    I've seen faulty induction CFL system with a bad ballast blinking smooth and steady like "12:00" on an alarm clock after a power outage. I've seen LEDs do all kinds of things like abrupt short missed beats, abrupt short flashes or flashing like a fire alarm and these could have a number of bad consequences like leading an aircraft to clip a tree top, or a fire department getting called to a facility by passersby thinking a fire alarm is activated.

    This will turn into a simple annoying dark spot to annoying a whole bunch of people and possibly becoming the cause of a nuisance violation and costing thousands of dollars to access and repair the problem. That could have been the reason LED fixtures were installed in the first place and this kind of thing becomes an enemy against the very cause.

    I can't be sorry for you if you chose the product yourself and applied it in a way that invokes but if you're using it within something that is reasonably within the advertised applications, I think its on the manufacturer or the rep for recommending a product not cut out to the elements or can not tolerate reasonable unwise choice like leaving it on all day on a hot summer day regardless of what the manual says. Blinking fail is a reason to not install the same model. I'd put in a different brand or a model and definite write them a letter asking reimbursement for what you spent on this problem even though they might not have legal obligations to pay. Depending on how it gets handled, they'll be a good brand for you or you write it off as a loss and put the brand of LED light on chit list.


    This kind of failure is probably tolerable for DIY market product that can be dealt with by a simple ladder, but not for products sold for professional installation. Many places have different permit requirements for self install vs professional install. If your locality requires a permit for professional install, the cost of that LED can reach the cost of bringing a aerial lift 3 times and pulling a permit 3 different times in addition to the labor. "five year warranty" can be excellent, or about as useless as "send us back the fuel pump at your own expense and we'll send you a new one within six weeks".
    Last edited by Electric-Light; 07-21-17 at 10:27 PM.

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