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Thread: The hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulthrotl View Post

    get back to us with those reciepts, now. we are dying to know.
    Does anyone keep receipts for stuff they bought years ago............
    No? So maybe it's time to book your slot at the funeral parlour............
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    what would compel someone to give combined lumen of three specific lamps but provide the wattage for something as abstract as the whole room anyhow?
    what would compel someone to endlessly debate..... nevermind. i got it.


    "Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain.
    And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire,
    "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished.
    Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants?
    I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin
    to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from
    off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
    ~New signature under construction.~
    ~~~~Please excuse the mess.~~~~

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulthrotl View Post
    what would compel someone to endlessly debate..... nevermind. i got it.


    "Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain.
    And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire,
    "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished.
    Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants?
    I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin
    to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from
    off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom baker View Post
    I agree what the point, as my experience is very positive.
    Before we (a city) converted to LED signal heads, I would typically get a call at 2:00 am for a lamp out, call a second person, roll a bucket truck to replace a lamp. With LEDs in place now for 15 - 20 years I may get one call a year to replace a lamp.
    They work good. Well, aside from frost build upon on red light of LED traffic lights that led to a several fatal accidents.

    Energy savings are considerable, take an 8 phase intersection, 4 thru movements and 4 left turns with 165 watt inc lamps, do the math when you convert to a 20 watt head.
    The LED signal displays are very reliable few failures and have at least a 5 year warranty.
    This is actually true and there's a significant and entirely different reason that does not apply to regular lighting. An incandescent lamp is naturally a broad spectrum source but getting a vibrant color requires a narrow spectrum so tinted glass is used to absorb unwanted light. Say you start with 1800 lm lamp. There's some loss in desirable light when you have a tint dense enough to get the desired level of removal for unwanted colors. Only fractions of 1800 lm gets delivered as colored light after the filter. When LEDs get the same lumens to the watt as a tungsten bulb, it's already many times more efficient, because those lumens are in colored light needed.

    LED traffic lights were practical far before LED general lighting. LEDs that only give light in a narrow band and traditional LEDs that's been around for decades and some types with lm/W similar to an incandescent lamp will give several fold increase in efficiency, because, that lm/W is in lumens at the desired color.

    Exciting a fluorescent lamp requires a short blue or shorter stimulation and it is the blue LED that enabled solid state fluorescent lighting technology. UVC based fluorescent lamps derive almost all of the visible light through fluorescent conversion, but blue excited solid state fluorescent lamp hits the semi-transparent phosphor layer that makes yellow light that combines with blue light that directly passes through to form a white light.

    As been said before, LED junctions rarely fail and traffic lights are large enough to allow adequate cooling for LEDs. Solid state fluorescent lamps face additional complications due to issues in the junction to phosphor interface and phosphor blend or filling agent degradation which traffic lights are immune from since they're not fluorescent lights. It's not the electrons getting tired that cause screen burn-ins and gradually dimming of plasma TVs or CRTs.

    Traffic lights are also ballasted differently than general lighting LEDs since they're not on the same type of cost and efficiency constraints. It is almost always the ballast that fails in LED lighting.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric-Light View Post
    They work good. Well, aside from frost build upon on red light of LED traffic lights that led to a several fatal accidents.



    It is almost always the ballast that fails in LED lighting.
    Drivers are used for LEDs not ballasts
    Moderator-Washington State
    Ancora Imparo

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom baker View Post
    Drivers are used for LEDs not ballasts
    Pilots, conductors, drivers. Different vehicles, different words, but they're all operators.

    A lighting ballast is a device that allows a lamp that can not start, stay lit, or remain lit without self destruction on a voltage source.

    The device that receives an input such as "8755" from a controller and handles the firing order and rates across those 28 segments without needing 28 channels is a driver. As far as the controller is aware, the display is told "8755". The display driver is the one managing LEDs by shuffling the firing order and firing rate without actually having 28 separate outputs to address individual segments simultaneously.

    A resistor used in series with the common lead of a 7-segment display block is a ballast that allows these LEDs to be powered from a voltage supply without burning out.

    The (something) that sits between LED elements and the AC power is a ballast with no purpose other than constraining LED to a certain input power to allow LEDs to emit steady light without allowing the LEDs to emit smoke. That's it. Nothing else. LED sales effort sees ballast as a dirty word, because "no ballast to fail" is frequently a part of LED sales pitch.

    12v rope LED uses a 12v DC output wall adapter and a whole bunch of strings each made of three LEDs and a resistor in series.
    The resistor is never mentioned in sales literature and it is a tick sized device which isn't always visible due to frosted or textured covering. A series resistor ballast is almost immortal, but it is a tiny heating element that ends up consuming 20-30% of DC side power which was produced from utility power with 60-80% efficiency.

    Factory made LED products that do not use ballast resistors use a constant current power supply that is applied as a lighting electronic ballast. Most screw-in LED bulbs and many factory made LED luminaires fall into this category. Well, while it can get wall to LED element in 80-95% range, this type of LED ballasts are quite failure prone.
    Last edited by Electric-Light; 07-22-17 at 06:08 PM.

  7. #27
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    Originally Posted by Fulthrotl
    <moved to spam, LEED AP, CALCTP-AT, and general nuisance bin>



    hooray! i made it to the general nuisance bin!
    ~New signature under construction.~
    ~~~~Please excuse the mess.~~~~

  8. #28
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    170722-2118 EDT

    It seems that a lot of readers are critical of what Electric-Light has to say.

    In my opinion you should study what he has to say, and then enter into an intelligent discussion with him on any points you agree or disagree with.

    Unfortunately the acronym LED is applied to many different items from the very basic LED chip, to some very complex device. Thus, it can be difficult when the word LED is used to know what is being discussed, or what should be considered as the problem.

    I have LEDs that I first used circa 1965 that still work. I have CREE LED bulbs made in recent years that do not work correctly, they cycle on and off with a period of minutes (clearly a thermal problem). But it is not fair to compare the 1965 devices with the 2015 devices.

    .

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar View Post
    170722-2118 EDT

    It seems that a lot of readers are critical of what Electric-Light has to say.

    In my opinion you should study what he has to say, and then enter into an intelligent discussion with him on any points you agree or disagree with...
    I would like to study what he has to say, but his posts are so long when I look at them it takes me to the same place in my brain as when my wife starts talking about the neighbours or her family. However, I've skimmed through enough of his posts that I get it. He is on a mission. He's not interested in intelligent discussion, he is interested in someone taking the bait and then he is going to wear them down in a barrage of words and figures. Meanwhile, the world is going LED and is not turning back. He's not he Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke, he's the sailor left high and dry after the ship has sailed.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right. Robert Hunter

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActionDave View Post
    I would like to study what he has to say, but his posts are so long when I look at them it takes me to the same place in my brain as when my wife starts talking about the neighbours or her family. However, I've skimmed through enough of his posts that I get it. He is on a mission. He's not interested in intelligent discussion, he is interested in someone taking the bait and then he is going to wear them down in a barrage of words and figures. Meanwhile, the world is going LED and is not turning back. He's not he Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke, he's the sailor left high and dry after the ship has sailed.
    tl;dr

    Electricians do it until it Hertz!

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