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Thread: Live work waiver

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Westminster, MD
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    581
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleman View Post
    There it is, and thank you mayanees. Yes that is what I'm looking for. The intent is for troubleshooting. We do not actually work on anything hot. Other than meters etc,
    the only time I have a tool contact anything hot would be a breaker swap in a panel. Makes me wonder if a fuse replacement is considered to be hot work.
    ... my pleasure Aleman.

    And no, but nice try, replacing a fuse is not a part of troubleshooting and of course that's just my opinion.
    Interpretation and the application of 70E is sometimes debatable, but the most important thing is to always meet the PPE requirements of the system you're working on.
    I'm 58 years old and grew up when energized interactions were commonplace. Now I'm charged with working in compliance with 70E, and fortunately the standard has somewhat evolved to a better place. I think what's left to change is there needs to be a better definition of 130.2(A) (1):
    (A) Energized Work.
    (1) Additional Hazards or Increased Risk. Energized work shall be permitted where the employer can demonstrate that de-energizing introduces additional hazards or increased risk.

    .. something like: the employer can demonstrate that the task can be completed safely using PPE that meets the requirements of the situation.
    Then the EEWP could become a workable document.

    But at least now, under normal operations, we can operate a breaker at the face of a panel without PPE and without a 30-foot remote operator.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NE Nebraska
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    32,910
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleman View Post
    There it is, and thank you mayanees. Yes that is what I'm looking for. The intent is for troubleshooting. We do not actually work on anything hot. Other than meters etc,
    the only time I have a tool contact anything hot would be a breaker swap in a panel. Makes me wonder if a fuse replacement is considered to be hot work.
    breaker swapping is not troubleshooting. You possibly do some troubleshooting to determine the breaker needs replaced but actually replacing it is not a troubleshooting task.

    Replacing a fuse is not hot work if it is on the load side of an open switch such is common with fused "safety switches". If exposed to the line side of the switch it could still be considered a hazard though.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleman View Post
    Thanks for the replies. We are not trying to get around any safety practices, just trying to be legit. The whole thing is a pain in
    the ass but it is what it is. We had a guy who didn't know what he was doing try to troubleshoot an issue. No one was hurt but there
    was a small flash. So we are establishing a work permit for live work, and also establishing what and who is a qualified worker. Guess
    my post should have been titled 'live work permit' as that is what it will be. Not a waiver.

    If anyone has an example of a live work permit I would love to see it.
    Can you clarify few things so that we can all learn from this matter?

    1. How did a guy who didn't know what he was doing end up in this situation-is he a qualified licensed electrician, if not, how did he end up in this panel and do you know exactly what he did to cause the flash?

    2. You said that the panel was compliant, but how old was it and has it been maintained to manufacturers standards?
    Ken
    Electrical Project Coordinator


    "Communication, its a wonderful thing, when it happens."

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Southern Ca, USA
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    377
    Quote Originally Posted by ken44 View Post
    Can you clarify few things so that we can all learn from this matter?

    1. How did a guy who didn't know what he was doing end up in this situation-is he a qualified licensed electrician, if not, how did he end up in this panel and do you know exactly what he did to cause the flash?

    2. You said that the panel was compliant, but how old was it and has it been maintained to manufacturers standards?
    1. Just a maintenance guy who tried to check voltage and used a crappy meter set to ohms. The thing exploded. The meter's fuse didn't even blow.

    2. Probably about 5 years old, and fairly maintained.

    I am not an advocate of people working around electricity that don't know what they are doing. Makes for a dangerous situation. Also not a fan of crappy test equipment. Makes for a
    potentially dangerous situation. I've seen this in plants before, where there are only a few people that understand electricity and controls but there are times when those people are not
    around. And then the poor bastard with the non working machine takes a stab at it. Yes we do need to establish whom is a qualified worker. The reality is that in a lot of plants there
    will be pressure to get things running and non qualified personnel may try to troubleshoot an electrical problem. Usually these people will own some sort of cheap meter. Which is exactly
    what happened. That said, if the meter was set correctly everything would have been ok. And a better quality meter would have just blown it's fuse.

    Also pertaining to your 1st question; I have been working with equipment and controls for many years and it is rare to see a licensed electrician in a equipment tech sort of job. Most of the
    licensed guys I have met don't really know controls. So to me, not having a license doesn't necessarily mean someone doesn't know what he or she is doing.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Placerville, CA, USA
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    17,941
    The crappy (or just old) meter design is distinguished by use of a fuse and holder combination that cannot interrupt the arc when the fuse blows if the (mis)applied voltage is too high.
    Or the fuse only protects the separate high amp terminal.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleman View Post
    1. Just a maintenance guy who tried to check voltage and used a crappy meter set to ohms. The thing exploded. The meter's fuse didn't even blow.

    2. Probably about 5 years old, and fairly maintained.

    I am not an advocate of people working around electricity that don't know what they are doing. Makes for a dangerous situation. Also not a fan of crappy test equipment. Makes for a
    potentially dangerous situation. I've seen this in plants before, where there are only a few people that understand electricity and controls but there are times when those people are not
    around. And then the poor bastard with the non working machine takes a stab at it. Yes we do need to establish whom is a qualified worker. The reality is that in a lot of plants there
    will be pressure to get things running and non qualified personnel may try to troubleshoot an electrical problem. Usually these people will own some sort of cheap meter. Which is exactly
    what happened. That said, if the meter was set correctly everything would have been ok. And a better quality meter would have just blown it's fuse.

    Also pertaining to your 1st question; I have been working with equipment and controls for many years and it is rare to see a licensed electrician in a equipment tech sort of job. Most of the
    licensed guys I have met don't really know controls. So to me, not having a license doesn't necessarily mean someone doesn't know what he or she is doing.
    Thanks Aleman, I appreciate the response and I understand that different environments can bring on all kinds of different issues, I manage over 28 million square foot of space and it varies greatly in purpose and scope and is a continual challenge to keep the workers safe. I have had to implement a policy where certain persons who are designated as techs (jack of all trades) do not perform any electrical work since they do not work under my license due to issues in the past that were similar to your recent matter.
    Ken
    Electrical Project Coordinator


    "Communication, its a wonderful thing, when it happens."

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