Where is the AFCI 120v to neutral video?

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rhovee

Member
i saw this video the other day posted and here and I can't find it anywhere. It was the video of the guy who was testing the AFCI breaker with 120v to neutral and it wasn't tripping. Showing a short circuit. Does anyone have a link to this?
 

jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
WOW! I would love to know what the manufacturer's response to something like this is. Pushing a product like this on consumers while waving the safety flag has become a crime. If this is typical of quality control or design, that's the real crime. :happysad:
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
WOW! I would love to know what the manufacturer's response to something like this is. Pushing a product like this on consumers while waving the safety flag has become a crime. If this is typical of quality control or design, that's the real crime. :happysad:

Well here a few tidbits:

1. glowing connections are responsible for most fires, AFCI aint goanna catch that.

2. lowering the magnetic trip on breakers for general use circuits will catch parallel arcs.

3. GFP catches all arcs to ground along with wiring errors.

4. 2 and 3 will not nuisance trip and are fool proof and do EXACTLY what a branch AFCI will do.

5. You aren't going to reliably detect arcs with the inferior electronics in an AFCI, its just to complex.

6. Series arcs are difficult to sustain. Paschen's law says that about 120 volts.

7. Europe has lower magnetic trip breakers and RCDs on nearly all circuits, so they have arc protection without UL listing appliances shutting things down.

8. They don't always catch arcs like indented.

9. They nuisance trip

10. A surge can easily fry the electronics... who knows if they will work 50 years from now.


I can go on for pages.



All you need to know if that AFCIs are a fraud nothing short criminal. Fire statistics do exist, but what you will never be told is that they can be prevented without Arc logic.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
i saw this video the other day posted and here and I can't find it anywhere. It was the video of the guy who was testing the AFCI breaker with 120v to neutral and it wasn't tripping. Showing a short circuit. Does anyone have a link to this?

To be fair, the video is NOT showing a short circuit. He is not even breaking the neutral. What he is doing is creating an arc by just touching the hot/feed wire to the terminals where the load wire is solidly connected. He is showing a series arc and that the AFCI isn't tripping from a series arc, which they are supposed to detect and trip.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Well here a few tidbits:

1. glowing connections are responsible for most fires, AFCI aint goanna catch that.

2. lowering the magnetic trip on breakers for general use circuits will catch parallel arcs.

3. GFP catches all arcs to ground along with wiring errors.

4. 2 and 3 will not nuisance trip and are fool proof and do EXACTLY what a branch AFCI will do.

5. You aren't going to reliably detect arcs with the inferior electronics in an AFCI, its just to complex.

6. Series arcs are difficult to sustain. Paschen's law says that about 120 volts.

7. Europe has lower magnetic trip breakers and RCDs on nearly all circuits, so they have arc protection without UL listing appliances shutting things down.

8. They don't always catch arcs like indented.

9. They nuisance trip

10. A surge can easily fry the electronics... who knows if they will work 50 years from now.


I can go on for pages.



All you need to know if that AFCIs are a fraud nothing short criminal. Fire statistics do exist, but what you will never be told is that they can be prevented without Arc logic.

I would't fully claim you won't have nuisance trips from a lowered magnetic trip setting - QO series have long had lower magnetic trip settings then most other breakers especially for 15 and 20 amp single pole versions, and is often a problem with high starting current power tools and such. They do have a "high magnetic" trip breaker available - but you are not finding it at local hardware or even big box stores - and many people that wish to get rid of this so called "nuisance tripping" just end up purchasing a 30 amp breaker:(
 

icdoo

New member
AFCI series arc

AFCI series arc

I wish they showed the model of the breaker. It may not be a combination type. It is my understanding previous breakers only detected parallel arcs.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I would't fully claim you won't have nuisance trips from a lowered magnetic trip setting - QO series have long had lower magnetic trip settings then most other breakers especially for 15 and 20 amp single pole versions, and is often a problem with high starting current power tools and such. They do have a "high magnetic" trip breaker available - but you are not finding it at local hardware or even big box stores - and many people that wish to get rid of this so called "nuisance tripping" just end up purchasing a 30 amp breaker:(

That's a very good point, and one I did consider, however I do not see power tools being plugged into general use circuits for bedrooms and living rooms. Table lamps, TVs, alarm clocks and space heaters, all low inrush devices compared to large motors. Ok there is AC units in apartments:p*

What should be put on the market are B, C, D and E level magnetic trip breakers, or in the very least a general "low IM" and "high IM" breaker .


Type B (low IM) would be used to meet parallel arc requirements for general use circuits in bedrooms, sunrooms, family rooms, dens, living rooms, ect ect. Circuits not likely to see large motors.


Type C or D would be for kitchens, dishwasher, disposals ect.



Type D (our standard IM pickups for most single pole breakers) would be for laundry circuits, AHUs, Furnaces and circuits likely to see power tools like exterior, basement, and garage outlets. *Where a high inrush device like AC window units may be found in a living room (for example) code should make an allowance for Type C, D, E and F (High IM) circuits provided they only feed the dedicated appliance and nothing else. An arc fault in the cord is not likely as most newer AC units have LCIs on their plugs.



Type E would be the same double pole trip values we have today.



So in a nut shell coming out with an extra single pole breaker in addition to the ones we have now only for use on general circuits would meet parallel arc fault requirements. Standard magnetic pickup values would be used else where... although the 2014 NEC might not like that for kitchens and laundry areas.


I bring this up because Europe often takes this approach. They have breakers with vary magnetic trip values and the lowest magnetic trip that suits the needs for a circuit is selected.

This document says it all:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Ok
I watched the video and when it ended there is a whole block of other videos? you can chose from.

Did anyone else watch any of them.

I kind of think someone might want to mention that there are a bunch of violations shown in these how to videos that are part of the block when the arc fault demonstration ends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DVo0_IBrza0

this one from the block of videos is scary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=guFn_mlhpY8

this one at the end it looks like the #4 AWG solid copper grounding electrode conductor is in the same lug as the Alum stranded service entrance conductor
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That's a very good point, and one I did consider, however I do not see power tools being plugged into general use circuits for bedrooms and living rooms. Table lamps, TVs, alarm clocks and space heaters, all low inrush devices compared to large motors. Ok there is AC units in apartments:p*

What should be put on the market are B, C, D and E level magnetic trip breakers, or in the very least a general "low IM" and "high IM" breaker .


Type B (low IM) would be used to meet parallel arc requirements for general use circuits in bedrooms, sunrooms, family rooms, dens, living rooms, ect ect. Circuits not likely to see large motors.


Type C or D would be for kitchens, dishwasher, disposals ect.



Type D (our standard IM pickups for most single pole breakers) would be for laundry circuits, AHUs, Furnaces and circuits likely to see power tools like exterior, basement, and garage outlets. *Where a high inrush device like AC window units may be found in a living room (for example) code should make an allowance for Type C, D, E and F (High IM) circuits provided they only feed the dedicated appliance and nothing else. An arc fault in the cord is not likely as most newer AC units have LCIs on their plugs.



Type E would be the same double pole trip values we have today.



So in a nut shell coming out with an extra single pole breaker in addition to the ones we have now only for use on general circuits would meet parallel arc fault requirements. Standard magnetic pickup values would be used else where... although the 2014 NEC might not like that for kitchens and laundry areas.


I bring this up because Europe often takes this approach. They have breakers with vary magnetic trip values and the lowest magnetic trip that suits the needs for a circuit is selected.

This document says it all:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf

I have occasionally seen some microwave ovens that sometimes trip standard QO breakers because of low magnetic trip, and yes the power tools that are typical culprits are not normally in bedrooms, living rooms, etc. but sometimes are utilized from those circuits during remodeling projects. Many outside outlets are tapped from a living room or bedroom just because they are adjacent to such rooms and there is maybe somewhat higher risk of seeing such power tools plugged into those at times.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I have occasionally seen some microwave ovens that sometimes trip standard QO breakers because of low magnetic trip, and yes the power tools that are typical culprits are not normally in bedrooms, living rooms, etc. but sometimes are utilized from those circuits during remodeling projects. Many outside outlets are tapped from a living room or bedroom just because they are adjacent to such rooms and there is maybe somewhat higher risk of seeing such power tools plugged into those at times.


The kitchen will not have low magnetic trip if the LMT approach was taken. You are correct existing installations would be an issue with tapped outlets, however new construction would allow that to not be so.


In regards to parallel arc fault, we also need to ask ourselves the ultimate question: Are they really a concern?



From this:

http://newscience.ul.com/wp-content...ng_Parallel_Arcing_Faults_in_the_Home_Run.pdf



Commercially available NM cable was purchased for use in the parallel arcing tests. The NM had 14
AWG copper conductors (neutral, hot, and ground), and had a temperature rating of 90
?C. The neutral
and ground conductors were connected together, allowing parallel faults to occur between either hot and
ground or hot and neutral. In nearly all cases, the arcing fault occurred between the hot and ground
conductors
.


:eek:hmy:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
... You are correct existing installations would be an issue with tapped outlets, however new construction would allow that to not be so...


Why is that? Nothing prohibits an outdoor receptacle from being on a circuit that also supplies a living room or bedroom.

That receptacle will end up having AFCI protection that it wouldn't need if on its own circuit.

In 2014 however a change was added for circuits supplying garage receptacles and now they can not supply any outlet outside the garage, but outdoor receptacle requirements were not changed other then some specifics on locations of required receptacles - but nothing concerning what else may be on the same circuit.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Why is that? Nothing prohibits an outdoor receptacle from being on a circuit that also supplies a living room or bedroom.

That receptacle will end up having AFCI protection that it wouldn't need if on its own circuit.

In 2014 however a change was added for circuits supplying garage receptacles and now they can not supply any outlet outside the garage, but outdoor receptacle requirements were not changed other then some specifics on locations of required receptacles - but nothing concerning what else may be on the same circuit.



I know, but I am speaking from a theoretical perspective. If low IM was applied to existing bedroom circuits also feeding exterior outlets we would have to put exterior outlets on a different circuit or not use low IM all together.

I think in order to solve electrical fires without re-inventing the wheel like AFCIs are doing we will need out of the box thinking along with code changes to put them to practice.
 

jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DVo0_IBrza0

this one from the block of videos is scary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=guFn_mlhpY8

this one at the end it looks like the #4 AWG solid copper grounding electrode conductor is in the same lug as the Alum stranded service entrance conductor


Did you happen to read the comments on the first video? The guy tries defending his "work" and calls out expensive electricians. "it's not that complicated" he says. Unbelievable.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Did you happen to read the comments on the first video? The guy tries defending his "work" and calls out expensive electricians. "it's not that complicated" he says. Unbelievable.


I want to say thanks for the first video. Thanks! :D


Excellent educational video on how to NOT get the job done :eek::lol:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I want to say thanks for the first video. Thanks! :D


Excellent educational video on how to NOT get the job done :eek::lol:

I only watched about half a minute and stopped it. Didn't need any more time to determine that - and he hadn't even showed any "how to" up to that point yet.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You need to watch the whole video. Its well worth it :p

No thanks, I did go back to that link and skipped to a couple different random spots and watched for just a little bit --- looks like I would be wishing I could have those 33 or so minutes of my life back if I were to watch the whole thing - I think I'd be happier "watching paint dry":happyyes:
 
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