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Thread: Engineer VS. AHJ

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    That's not the worst part. The OP is now facing two very unpalatable choices. First, rip out what doesn't conform and replace it with the required sizes of conduit and cable, or, assuming the engineer and owner will let it slide, prepare a nice fat change order to return the difference in value (value, NOT cost) between what was bid ('cause you know that the more expensive option was on the bid set) and what was supplied. Be prepared to have said change order audited within an inch of its life. I hope for the OP's sake that this was a small job.
    OP didn't say that it had been installed, it was phrased a hypothetical question.
    The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain

  2. #12
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    I pretend to be an engineer and design electrohydraulic systems, very small by the standards of most here. I'm not perfect. I'm not always optimum. But my drawings are those which will be used to commission and troubleshoot the system.

    I ask that proposed changes be passed by me FOR TWO REASONS. I MIGHT have a reason for my selection/action. If your preferences are as good as mine, and make something easier to install and/or less expensive, I'm all for it. However, you may not know or understand why I did something, and I need input to your variance.

    BUT I absolutely need to update drawings to as-built conditions for your benefit in the future.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    That's not the worst part. The OP is now facing two very unpalatable choices. First, rip out what doesn't conform and replace it with the required sizes of conduit and cable, or, assuming the engineer and owner will let it slide, prepare a nice fat change order to return the difference in value (value, NOT cost) between what was bid ('cause you know that the more expensive option was on the bid set) and what was supplied. Be prepared to have said change order audited within an inch of its life. I hope for the OP's sake that this was a small job.
    In theory, the contractor would refund the difference in cost or value, but in reality, I think they usually give back about 10 cents on the dollar. And its usually tough to twist anyone's arm enough to get any more back that whatever the contractor feels like giving back.

    I'm pretty sure I've seen this happen and the contractor and the general contactor still keep their 15% CO fee. I'm thinking "OK, this is your mistake, but you still want to charge a 15% Change Order fee?"

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smart $ View Post
    Depends on the contract. Usually, you have to install per 'approved for construction' plans. Any change requires a revision to said plans.
    And commercial terms.
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkidd View Post
    OP didn't say that it had been installed, it was phrased a hypothetical question.
    You could be right, although I didn't read it that way. In which case, he faces two very unpalatable hypothetical choices.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    In theory, the contractor would refund the difference in cost or value, but in reality, I think they usually give back about 10 cents on the dollar. And its usually tough to twist anyone's arm enough to get any more back that whatever the contractor feels like giving back.

    I'm pretty sure I've seen this happen and the contractor and the general contactor still keep their 15% CO fee. I'm thinking "OK, this is your mistake, but you still want to charge a 15% Change Order fee?"
    Larger projects will hire a cost accountant with experience in construction change orders to review the CO. They won't get away with 10 cents on the dollar. For smaller projects, anyone can get a copy of RS Means and calculate the costs to within 10% or so. After haggling on the numbers, there might be a settlement at 80% or so.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsy View Post
    I don't believe engineering plans anticipate wiring methods (raceway type), or derating requirements that affect Service, Feeder, or branch wire size.

    Conductor length also changes subtantially when avoiding plumbing & HVAC equipment that always block the intended raceway path for electrical.
    they better spec conduit and conductor size factoring in Vd, ampacity derating, etc. (how do you think they size it?)
    and they better coordinate up to a reasonable degree



  8. #18
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    Under Designed

    Thank you for all your replies.
    In the past, I have simply issued a VE request to the engineer with price changes. Some get approved, some get denied.
    This question is hypothetical in nature and I believe this forum has made it clear.
    Thank you.

    Now, another hypothetical question.

    Lets say an engineer under designed a project and his design would not meet NEC requirements.
    Can the AHJ fail the installation for not meeting code even though the drawings were stamped by an EE?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    In theory, the contractor would refund the difference in cost or value, but in reality, I think they usually give back about 10 cents on the dollar. And its usually tough to twist anyone's arm enough to get any more back that whatever the contractor feels like giving back.

    I'm pretty sure I've seen this happen and the contractor and the general contactor still keep their 15% CO fee. I'm thinking "OK, this is your mistake, but you still want to charge a 15% Change Order fee?"
    we always required a detailed breakdown and verified pricing/labor (we expected at least cost, they can keep the OH and profit if our fault...if their fault we wanted it all)
    our spec had a detailed form for submitting a change order (or credit) that was part of the contract
    if it was lowballing at 10%, rip it out and put it in per spec, that usually got us a revised CO with a reasonable number in return
    if they refused, notify them they are in default and attach the bond



  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbridled View Post
    Thank you for all your replies.
    In the past, I have simply issued a VE request to the engineer with price changes. Some get approved, some get denied.
    This question is hypothetical in nature and I believe this forum has made it clear.
    Thank you.

    Now, another hypothetical question.

    Lets say an engineer under designed a project and his design would not meet NEC requirements.
    Can the AHJ fail the installation for not meeting code even though the drawings were stamped by an EE?
    in general, yes



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