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Thread: Why not call it EBC instead of EGC?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldDigger View Post
    And make it Bonded Conductor instead? Makes sense, but maybe not as urgent.

    And the counter argument is that you would not bond to any POCO conductor except the grounded one.
    I think calling the "grounded conductor" a "bonded conductor" is both confusing and inaccurate.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon456 View Post
    I know that GEC stands for "Grounding Electrode Conductor": it is the conductor from the service panel to the grounding electrode. The point I was making in my post is that a GEC is a conductor for grounding (electrically connecting to the grounding electrode). Whereas an EGC is for BONDING electrical equipment to the breaker panel: it provides a safety fault path for tripping the OCPD; it is not used for grounding to earth.
    That's my point.

    "Grounding Conductor" just before "GEC" in parenthesis in the first post could confuse someone to think they were one in the same.

    It's not very often (hardly ever) that we simply stick a piece of wire in the dirt and call it good without attaching it to something like a rod, pipe, or something else.

    The "Grounding Conductor" in the case above would be the Grounding "Electrode" itself, and the "GEC" or "Grounding Electrode Conductor" would be the conductor attaching the service panel to the Electrode.

    Just sayin.

    JAP>

  3. #13
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    Why not just call them Larry, Curly and Moe? Or Huey, Dewey and Louie?

  4. #14
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    Mike Holt said it best "What color is it and what does it do"
    You've got one month to make a proposal for the 2020 NEC.
    Moderator-Washington State
    Ancora Imparo

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom baker View Post
    Mike Holt said it best "What color is it and what does it do"
    You've got one month to make a proposal for the 2020 NEC.
    I agree with the second half-"what does it do", but I will say relying on color is a good way to get yourself hurt or killed.

    Been zapped by a green wire and have traced it out to find it connected to a breaker. A lot of white wires used as a hot never get marked.
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon456 View Post
    That's the point I'm making. The current terminology blurs the distinction between the two. In the case of the EGC, it is a misnomer as its purpose is for bonding, not for grounding.

    I had a protracted argument with a licensed electrical contractor over this: he was trying to apply GEC sizing (Table 250.66) to an EGC between our facility's service entrance and our main distribution panel.
    I personally believe this garbage about trying to get the terms bonded and bonding adopted by the code is leading to way more confusion.

    The protracted argument you had was with somebody who didn't know what either table and their respective conductors are for. Once you clear on it it doesn't matter what they are called. In Europe their EGC is called protective earth and they call a connection to ground earthing. I have no problem with that.

    My personal preference is there is one bond, at the service or sds and there is one connection to earth there. Everything else is a grounded conductor and equipment grounding. Simple is better. If I say to you equipment grounding you know exactly what I'm talking about. We just need more electricians to understand basic electricity and use the current language, with a slight tweak emphasizing equipment grounding and what it's for, and things will get a lot better. Trying to adopt a whole new vocabulary will only make things worse.
    Once in a while you get shown the light
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right. Robert Hunter

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActionDave View Post
    I personally believe this garbage about trying to get the terms bonded and bonding adopted by the code is leading to way more confusion.

    The protracted argument you had was with somebody who didn't know what either table and their respective conductors are for. Once you clear on it it doesn't matter what they are called. In Europe their EGC is called protective earth and they call a connection to ground earthing. I have no problem with that.

    My personal preference is there is one bond, at the service or sds and there is one connection to earth there. Everything else is a grounded conductor and equipment grounding. Simple is better. If I say to you equipment grounding you know exactly what I'm talking about. We just need more electricians to understand basic electricity and use the current language, with a slight tweak emphasizing equipment grounding and what it's for, and things will get a lot better. Trying to adopt a whole new vocabulary will only make things worse.
    I have a problem with EGC and with protective earth...both of those terms imply that the connection to the earth has something do with the protection that those conductors provide. The term EGC is why we have people that think you can make something safe by driving a ground rod and making a connection to it.

    The Canadian Electrical Code changed from Equipment Grounding Conductor to Equipment Bonding Conductor a number of years ago. Their instructors tell me that it has made this subject much easier for the students to understand after the code made that change.

    The primary function of what the NEC calls the EGC is the bonding of the non-current carrying parts of the electrical system to the main bonding jumper to provide a fault clearing path. While the EGC does provide a connection to the earth, that really has nothing to do with its function.
    Don, Illinois
    Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity. Dr. Rick Rigsby
    (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
    ....
    The primary function of what the NEC calls the EGC is the bonding of the non-current carrying parts of the electrical system to the main bonding jumper to provide a fault clearing path. While the EGC does provide a connection to the earth, that really has nothing to do with its function.
    It is a bit more complicated than that.

    The fault clearing path is to the center tap of the POCO secondary if that is the grounded conductor, or to the corner of a corner grounded delta if that is the service type. It is possible to bond the exposed metal parts of the world to that conductor to provide a fault clearing path because that POCO conductor is grounded.
    In the case of an ungrounded delta, the EGC does not provide a fault clearing path (except maybe for a second fault) but is still required for safety.

    If the POCO conductor that gets bonded were not grounded, there could be no EGC.
    Ground is not part of the fault clearing path, but if a bonded conductor can safely be used as the fault clearing path, it is only because the return conductor is expected to be at ground potential.
    Last edited by GoldDigger; 08-07-17 at 10:51 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldDigger View Post
    It is a bit more complicated than that.

    The fault clearing path is to the center tap of the POCO secondary if that is the grounded conductor, or to the corner of a corner grounded delta if that is the service type. It is possible to bond the exposed metal parts of the world to that conductor to provide a fault clearing path because that POCO conductor is grounded.
    The fault clearing path on the line side of the main boding jumper, is for the most part outside of the scope of the NEC.
    In the case of an ungrounded delta, the EGC does not provide a fault clearing path (except maybe for a second fault) but is still required for safety.
    The ungrounded system is a special case, but even there the connection to the earth has nothing to do with the function of the EGC. It's function is still to bond everything together, and it is the fault clearing path for a second fault which is really a line to line fault.

    If the POCO conductor that gets bonded were not grounded, there could be no EGC.
    Ground is not part of the fault clearing path, but if a bonded conductor can safely be used as the fault clearing path, it is only because the return conductor is expected to be at ground potential.
    The fault clearing function has nothing to do with a conductor being at ground potential. Sure it normally is, but that has nothing to do with its function. If XO were to be "floated" and the "EGC" connected to XO it would work exactly the same as a fault clearing path.
    Don, Illinois
    Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity. Dr. Rick Rigsby
    (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
    The fault clearing path on the line side of the main boding jumper, is for the most part outside of the scope of the NEC.

    The ungrounded system is a special case, but even there the connection to the earth has nothing to do with the function of the EGC. It's function is still to bond everything together, and it is the fault clearing path for a second fault which is really a line to line fault.

    The fault clearing function has nothing to do with a conductor being at ground potential. Sure it normally is, but that has nothing to do with its function. If XO were to be "floated" and the "EGC" connected to XO it would work exactly the same as a fault clearing path.
    But it would not be safe to connect X0 to exposed metal, so that would not be an EGC or EBC in the usual sense.

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