Does NEC cover plug-in machines?

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mdrfire

Member
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I have an Electrical Inspector trying to force a third party inspection (UL 508A or similar) on an old cigarette tax stamping machine (basically a labeler) that a customer of mine is moving into a newly built warehouse. He is citing "NEC", but could not cite a specific section of the code. Are plug-in machines being placed in a facility subject to NEC?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
generally, utilization equipment of any kind is not considered covered by the NEC.

however, some states do require listing of industrial control panels. but this is not part of the NEC. it is a separate requirement.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
While the NEC does not require the use of listed equipment in many cases, OSHA does. The following is from this document.
What do a printer, copier, desktop computer, telephone, employee alarm, water cooler, string of Christmas lights, electric heater, air conditioner, electric generator, surveillance camera, fire door, exit component, fire extinguisher, electrical conduit, conductor, electric motor, powered industrial truck, acetylene torch, and liquefied petroleum gas oven have in common? In accordance with OSHA Safety Standards, any of these products used in a workplace must be approved (i.e., tested and certified) by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) to help ensure that they can be used safely in the workplace. OSHA requires NRTL approval for 37 different types of products, which are described at http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/prodcatg.html. Electric equipment is the largest of these product categories.

The requirements for NRTL approval apply where these products are used in workplaces subject to OSHA's jurisdiction. These include the vast majority of private employers in the United States and its territories, and most Federal Government places of employment. The requirements also apply to State and local government places of employment in States that have received OSHA approval to administer their own occupational safety and health program (referred to as "State Plan States").
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Read what it actually says, not what you want it to say. Nothing in the code requires anything to be listed unless it says so somewhere in the code. 90.7 is informative in nature and does not require anything at all to be listed.

It also indicates that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment if it were listed as is.

IMO, OP's machine need not be inspected for NEC compliance if it is still in original condition and if it was listed
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
It also indicates that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment if it were listed as is.

IMO, OP's machine need not be inspected for NEC compliance if it is still in original condition and if it was listed

The way 90.7 is worded it is not binding. It is more on the order of a suggestion.

In any case, how would one go about determining just what NEC requirements would apply to the innards of most utilization equipment? Switchboards, MCCs, industrial control panels, and the like are a bit of a special case because there are often things the code requires for protection of downstream items such as motors that are supplied as part of such assemblies. As part of an inspection it would appear to be appropriate that at least a cursory check be made for instance that SC and OC protection was provided for a downstream motor fed from an ICP because that is a requirement for the motor itself. Beyond those kind of concerns, I just do not see what is inside of something supplied as an assembly is any of the inspector's concern.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I have an Electrical Inspector trying to force a third party inspection (UL 508A or similar) on an old cigarette tax stamping machine (basically a labeler) that a customer of mine is moving into a newly built warehouse. He is citing "NEC", but could not cite a specific section of the code. Are plug-in machines being placed in a facility subject to NEC?

You may want to remind Mr. Inspector that Grand Rapids no longer has its own electrical code and he can only enforce the electrical requirements of the Michigan code, which is almost all of the NEC.

(Grand Rapids used to have its own code and even its own licensing. The state said no to that a few years ago. GR also used to have its own local (IBEW 107) and they lost that, too, a couple decades ago. The inspector may be a leftover from those days.)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The way 90.7 is worded it is not binding. It is more on the order of a suggestion.

In any case, how would one go about determining just what NEC requirements would apply to the innards of most utilization equipment? Switchboards, MCCs, industrial control panels, and the like are a bit of a special case because there are often things the code requires for protection of downstream items such as motors that are supplied as part of such assemblies. As part of an inspection it would appear to be appropriate that at least a cursory check be made for instance that SC and OC protection was provided for a downstream motor fed from an ICP because that is a requirement for the motor itself. Beyond those kind of concerns, I just do not see what is inside of something supplied as an assembly is any of the inspector's concern.
If the assembly is listed by a NRTL. Otherwise why can't we build a lot of different assemblies in our shops and then go install those and tell the inspector very little of it needs looked at because it is all composed of "assemblies".

You can build a control panel and build it to NEC requirements, or you can get proper certifications and build it to UL standards and inspector basically can't tell you anything is wrong with your control panel. He can however say your motor appears to not have any requied overload protection and can request that proper protection be added somewhere.
Fix for such violation could be as simple as making proper adjustment to an overload relay already located in the listed control panel.
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
I have an Electrical Inspector trying to force a third party inspection (UL 508A or similar) on an old cigarette tax stamping machine (basically a labeler) that a customer of mine is moving into a newly built warehouse. He is citing "NEC", but could not cite a specific section of the code. Are plug-in machines being placed in a facility subject to NEC?

Ask the inspector the EXACT NEC violation. I bet he can't come up with one. If he still insists it's a violation, contact your State electrical inspector(s) and get their opinion.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
I have an Electrical Inspector trying to force a third party inspection (UL 508A or similar) on an old cigarette tax stamping machine (basically a labeler) that a customer of mine is moving into a newly built warehouse. He is citing "NEC", but could not cite a specific section of the code. Are plug-in machines being placed in a facility subject to NEC?

is moving into a newly built warehouse.

You would think the machine or at least the branch circuit for the machine would have been on the drawings when the permit was pulled for the warehouse
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Read what it actually says, not what you want it to say. Nothing in the code requires anything to be listed unless it says so somewhere in the code. 90.7 is informative in nature and does not require anything at all to be listed.

I don't want it to say anything that's why I asked it as a question. :roll:
 

mdrfire

Member
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
mdrfire

mdrfire

Thank you all for the responses. It is not in Grand Rapids, or even Michigan. It is in Anchorage Alaska. The machine is not part of the building. It gets set on the floor and plugged in. The owner simply wants to move it from his old facility to the new, and (unfortunately) did so before final inspection of the new building.

When I questioned the inspector he stated that NEC has definitions for the terms "Appliance" and "Utilization Equipment", and therefore it is covered under NEC. I discussed this briefly with Mike Holt and he disagrees. NEC references the terms with regard to providing appropriate overcurrent protection, wiring, etc. for the branch circuit. It does not cover the appliance/equipment itself.

To this point the inspector has not been able to direct me to any state or local law requiring third party inspection under his jurisdiction.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thank you all for the responses. It is not in Grand Rapids, or even Michigan. It is in Anchorage Alaska. The machine is not part of the building. It gets set on the floor and plugged in. The owner simply wants to move it from his old facility to the new, and (unfortunately) did so before final inspection of the new building.

When I questioned the inspector he stated that NEC has definitions for the terms "Appliance" and "Utilization Equipment", and therefore it is covered under NEC. I discussed this briefly with Mike Holt and he disagrees. NEC references the terms with regard to providing appropriate overcurrent protection, wiring, etc. for the branch circuit. It does not cover the appliance/equipment itself.

To this point the inspector has not been able to direct me to any state or local law requiring third party inspection under his jurisdiction.
NEC does have definitions for Appliance and Utilization Equipment. Your machine possibly fits both definitions. Did your inspector want to look into all other appliances or utilization equipment at the location for NEC compliance? If it is NRTL listed and is still maintained in original condition it is covered by it's listing.
 

mdrfire

Member
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Changing Gears

Changing Gears

The inspector has now changed gears, indicating now that it is not NEC related, but a violation of an Alaska Statute prohibiting the sale or transfer of unlisted consumer electrical products. When I challenged that with the fact that no sale or transfer of ownership was taking place he passed me on to the Alaska Dept. of Labor, whom evidently enforces that law along with the assistance of their municipal building inspectors.
The gentlemen there was kind enough to forward me the complete text of that law which clearly defines a Consumer Electrical Product as an "Electrical product that is marketed for and commonly purchased by the general public and that is...".
I pointed out that this was tax stamping equipment marketed for and purchased by licensed distributors, not the general public, and therefore does not meet the definition of "Consumer Electrical Product". He has now referred the question again, and I am awaiting response.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The inspector has now changed gears, indicating now that it is not NEC related, but a violation of an Alaska Statute prohibiting the sale or transfer of unlisted consumer electrical products. When I challenged that with the fact that no sale or transfer of ownership was taking place he passed me on to the Alaska Dept. of Labor, whom evidently enforces that law along with the assistance of their municipal building inspectors.
The gentlemen there was kind enough to forward me the complete text of that law which clearly defines a Consumer Electrical Product as an "Electrical product that is marketed for and commonly purchased by the general public and that is...".
I pointed out that this was tax stamping equipment marketed for and purchased by licensed distributors, not the general public, and therefore does not meet the definition of "Consumer Electrical Product". He has now referred the question again, and I am awaiting response.

My question at this point is, who ticked him off, you or the client? :eek:hmy:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The inspector has now changed gears, indicating now that it is not NEC related, but a violation of an Alaska Statute prohibiting the sale or transfer of unlisted consumer electrical products. When I challenged that with the fact that no sale or transfer of ownership was taking place he passed me on to the Alaska Dept. of Labor, whom evidently enforces that law along with the assistance of their municipal building inspectors.
The gentlemen there was kind enough to forward me the complete text of that law which clearly defines a Consumer Electrical Product as an "Electrical product that is marketed for and commonly purchased by the general public and that is...".
I pointed out that this was tax stamping equipment marketed for and purchased by licensed distributors, not the general public, and therefore does not meet the definition of "Consumer Electrical Product". He has now referred the question again, and I am awaiting response.
This inspector has not gotten the attention of others, but I question whether he was in a position to enforce such statutes in the first place. His primary thing is likely NEC and rules associated with permits and licensing in his area, beyond that becomes more questionable without knowing more about State laws.
 

mdrfire

Member
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
RESOLVED

RESOLVED

The state has withdrawn. The issue is now closed.

Contractors lesson learned: Keep your customers equipment out of the building until after final inspection.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The state has withdrawn. The issue is now closed.

Contractors lesson learned: Keep your customers equipment out of the building until after final inspection.

How well does that work with production type facilities? Pass the general building construction permit, then add equipment and get nailed for not filing a permit for wiring the equipment? What about large equipment that sometimes is set first, or at least major portions of it, then they put a building around it?
 
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