Puddy Pads

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infinity

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New Jersey
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Anyone use these on a regular basis? We've just ordered about 10,000 of these to install in every 4 11/16" box as per the specification for an apartment house. Are these actually required in all walls even those that do not have a 2 hour fire rating? Would using 4" boxes change the requirment?
 

iwire

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Massachusetts
Anyone use these on a regular basis? We've just ordered about 10,000 of these to install in every 4 11/16" box as per the specification for an apartment house. Are these actually required in all walls even those that do not have a 2 hour fire rating? Would using 4" boxes change the requirment?

Is it because there will be more than one box per stud bay?
 

infinity

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New Jersey
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Is it because there will be more than one box per stud bay?

No, I'm being told that it's because the boxes are larger than 16 square inches so every box needs one even those within the apartment and with only 1 hour rated walls.
 

roger

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Fl
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Retired Electrician
No, I'm being told that it's because the boxes are larger than 16 square inches so every box needs one even those within the apartment and with only 1 hour rated walls.
Rob, aren't you using plaster rings on these boxes? If you are the opening in the membrane would not be 16 sq In.

Roger
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
I believe if it is a sharing wall and boxes are within the same bay then the padding or fire rated boxes are required.

If it is on the ceiling then the fire padding or fire rated boxes are required.

Or you can build a fire rated structure around each enclosure or box.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
If you have a mud ring which I am sure you do as no device will fit on a those boxes without a ring.
The opening will only be that of the mud ring. Who cares about the metal within the wall cavity.
Also if there are multiple layers of drywall then you must use deep rings and not just stick the box out and let a 5/8 be for the last sheet at the surface.

There are different PADs, some are for sound some for Fire rating.
I don't think 1 will cover a box that size you may need more than 1 per box.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
This is something else I didn't know(see below). I have not had to deal with this issue at all. We are doing a home theater and the designer wants us to use the putty pad to stop sound from leaving the room...

Separation of boxes by a stud does notsatisfy the 24 in. (60.9 cm) spacingrequirement.? Spacing is the indicator for determiningif boxes on opposite sides of a ratedwall or partition need to be protected.Vertical distance and studs are notconsidered for spacing.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
International Building Code:

714.3 Fire-resistance-rated walls.
Penetrations into or through fire walls, fire barriers, smoke barrier walls and fire partitions shall comply with Sections 714.3.1 through 714.3.3. Penetrations in smoke barrier walls shall also comply with Section 714.5.

714.3.1 Through penetrations.
Through penetrations of fire-resistance-rated walls shall comply with Section 714.3.1.1 or 714.3.1.2.

714.3.1.1 Fire-resistance-rated assemblies.
Penetrations shall be installed as tested in an approved fire-resistance-rated assembly.

714.3.1.2 Through-penetration firestop system.
Through penetrations shall be protected by an approved penetration firestop system installed as tested in accordance with ASTM E 814 or UL 1479, with a minimum positive pressure differential of 0.01 inch (2.49 Pa) of water and shall have an F rating of not less than the required fire-resistance rating of the wall penetrated.

714.3.2 Membrane penetrations.
Membrane penetrations shall comply with Section 714.3.1. Where walls or partitions are required to have a fire-resistance rating, recessed fixtures shall be installed such that the required fire-resistance will not be reduced.

Exceptions:

1. Membrane penetrations of maximum 2-hour fire-resistance-rated walls and partitions by steel electrical boxes that do not exceed 16 square inches (0.0 103 m2) in area, provided the aggregate area of the openings through the membrane does not exceed 100 square inches (0.0645 m2) in any 100 square feet (9.29 m2) of wall area. The annular space between the wall membrane and the box shall not exceed 1/8 inch (3.1 mm). Such boxes on opposite sides of the wall or partition shall be separated by one of the following:1.1. By a horizontal distance of not less than 24 inches (610 mm) where the wall or partition is constructed with individual noncommunicating stud cavities;1.2. By a horizontal distance of not less than the depth of the wall cavity where the wall cavity is filled with cellulose loose-fill, rockwool or slag mineral wool insulation;1.3. By solid fireblocking in accordance with Section 718.2.1;1.4. By protecting both outlet boxes with listed putty pads; or1.5. By other listed materials and methods.

2. Membrane penetrations by listed electrical boxes of any material, provided such boxes have been tested for use in fire-resistance-rated assemblies and are installed in accordance with the instructions included in the listing. The annular space between the wall membrane and the box shall not exceed 1/8 inch (3.1 mm) unless listed otherwise. Such boxes on opposite sides of the wall or partition shall be separated by one of the following:2.1. By the horizontal distance specified in the listing of the electrical boxes;2.2. By solid fireblocking in accordance with Section 718.2.1;2.3. By protecting both boxes with listed putty pads; or2.4. By other listed materials and methods.

3. Membrane penetrations by electrical boxes of any size or type, which have been listed as part of a wall opening protective material system for use in fire-resistance-rated assemblies and are installed in accordance with the instructions included in the listing.
 

infinity

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New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
Could you use a 4 inch extension ring on a 4 inch square instead of 4-11/16 box for fill?

In most cases no because the studs are only 2.5". I posted this question because there seems to lots of misinformation depending on who you ask and the answers are all over the place. Some say that if the opening in the wall is 16 square inches or less (like one or two gang) then the box can be 4 11/16", others say that box cannot be larger than 16 square inches. Some say that stud spacing matters other say that it doesn't. Some say that these are only required in 2 hour rated walls others say that they're required in every wall. :slaphead:
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In most cases no because the studs are only 2.5". I posted this question because there seems to lots of misinformation depending on who you ask and the answers are all over the place. Some say that if the opening in the wall is 16 square inches or less (like one or two gang) then the box can be 4 11/16", others say that box cannot be larger than 16 square inches. Some say that stud spacing matters other say that it doesn't. Some say that these are only required in 2 hour rated walls others say that they're required in every wall. :slaphead:
I'm guessing it has to be one of those answers.:p
 

Strathead

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Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I thought I knew this one and then I started reading. Here is the UBC code section:

709.7 Membrane Penetrations. Membrane penetrations of the fire-resistive walls shall comply with Section 709.6.
EXCEPTIONS: 1. Steel electrical boxes that do not exceed 16 square inches (10 323 mm2) in area, provided that the
area of such openings does not exceed 100 square inches for any 100 square feet (694 mm2/m2) of wall area. Outlet
boxes on opposite sides of the wall shall be separated by a horizontal distance of not less than 24 inches (610 mm).
Membrane penetrations for electrical outlet boxes of any material are permitted, provided that such boxes are tested
for use in fire-resistive assemblies and installed in accordance with the tested assembly.

So, we see that they aren't any better than the NEC at writing clear codes. I would contend that since the title is "membrane penetrations" the 16 square inches would need to penetrate the membrane. From a common sense perspective, If you had a 24" x 24" box in a fire wall, and only the center had a single gang mud wiring screwed on it, I bet the last part of sheetrock on that wall to burn would be the sheetrock around the mud ring.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
In most cases no because the studs are only 2.5". I posted this question because there seems to lots of misinformation depending on who you ask and the answers are all over the place. Some say that if the opening in the wall is 16 square inches or less (like one or two gang) then the box can be 4 11/16", others say that box cannot be larger than 16 square inches. Some say that stud spacing matters other say that it doesn't. Some say that these are only required in 2 hour rated walls others say that they're required in every wall. :slaphead:

Metal boxes do not have a 2 hr rating so in a 2 hr wall every box needs protection -- Nutshell in 1 hr wall; every opening larger than 2 gang -- thru penetrations (facing opposite directions) within 2' horizontally of each other floor to ceiling -- & 100 sq inches of openings in a 100 sq ft of wall ( that is more than 16 single gang openings ) -- Putty pads are not rated to be used on large j boxes or panels -- Don't forget in a protected floor/ceiling/ roof assembly all recess cans need protection ( there are a few that carry a 1 hr rating).
 
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