Arc fault LED issues.

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rhovee

Member
Just got done doing a 40 story apartment building in Seattle and now we are having arc fault issues with the LED lights. We have a Siemens arc fault tester hooked up and when each switch is turned on individually it isn't an issue. But as you start to turn more lights on they build and cause interference on the circuit and simulate an arc fault. We have tried everything we can think of including new transformers/dimmers. Trying to see if anyone else has had the same issues or not. The fixtures are not FCC compliant which is a big issue.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Just got done doing a 40 story apartment building in Seattle and now we are having arc fault issues with the LED lights. We have a Siemens arc fault tester hooked up and when each switch is turned on individually it isn't an issue. But as you start to turn more lights on they build and cause interference on the circuit and simulate an arc fault. We have tried everything we can think of including new transformers/dimmers. Trying to see if anyone else has had the same issues or not. The fixtures are not FCC compliant which is a big issue.


Did you megger any of the trouble circuits to make sure nothing is faulting to ground?

If you have no ground faults call the manufacturer and see what options you have.

I personally would take the AFCI out. If inspectors are around Id substitute them for GFP breakers hoping they don't notice. GFP breaker will provide the same protection without nuisance tripping.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
While not officially confessed to by the manufactures it is all but admitted that AFCI's do nuisance trip, however, the ground fault portion of the breaker will reveal wiring errors.

My personal experience has led me to conclude that AFCI's hate electronic loads, so....
I would start by substituting GFCI breakers on the problem circuits...if you still get a trip then there is little doubt that the problem is with the wiring.
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Your problem sounds very similar to a problem I had about a year ago with TCP T-8 4lamp fixtures in a new home garage.
Had various AFCI's tripping, after connecting Siemens Intelliarc tool it showed whenever those lights on it had high level of the condition that could cause trip and not only on that circuit but circuits throughout the house!

Turns out it is the electronic ballasts causing it. (I read that switching power supplies are also notorious for it in the case of an LED drivers). I started disconnecting lights one at a time, and when I got 1/3 way through readings started to drop, 1/2 way through even lower. My conclusion was that the interference was additive and just so happened that the number of lights installed was at that threshold.

Interestingly I installed a leviton receptacle type surge suppressor in one of the longest circuits in the house and it all but knocked out all the interference causing the tripping. Then found it also helped to switch which phase the interference was being injected on. Still would have a random trip after months. The latest thing I did before Christmas was replace all of the AFCI's with most current breaker as (used siemens in this case) as of June 16, 2014 they installed additional filtering in AFCI breaker. So far no reports of problems.
 

sfav8r

Senior Member
Just got done doing a 40 story apartment building in Seattle and now we are having arc fault issues with the LED lights. We have a Siemens arc fault tester hooked up and when each switch is turned on individually it isn't an issue. But as you start to turn more lights on they build and cause interference on the circuit and simulate an arc fault. We have tried everything we can think of including new transformers/dimmers. Trying to see if anyone else has had the same issues or not. The fixtures are not FCC compliant which is a big issue.

We had a similar problem. After more wasted hours than I care to discuss, and several calls to tech support we learned a few things. The thing I think applies in your situation is the current threshold. If there is a fault *anywhere* in the circuit it won't trip until the current threshold is met. It probably varies by manufacturer, but I recall something about .4 amps. It's incredibly frustrating because if you have a single lamp with a fault and you turn it on, if you haven't reached the current threshold then the AFCI won't trip...yet. But later as you add load and the threshold is met, then the breaker will trip, often making you think whatever you just turned on is the problem. It wasn't that big of a deal before LEDs because it was easier to meet the threshold. But now, you can have a lot of lites on without meeting the threshold.
 

rhovee

Member
That sounds like the same scenario. If you turn on lights in a certain order things will trip. Try it with same lights in different order they won't trip. We found a filter that takes out the noise from LED's and even though the manufacturer approves it, the AHJ says no way.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
That sounds like the same scenario. If you turn on lights in a certain order things will trip. Try it with same lights in different order they won't trip. We found a filter that takes out the noise from LED's and even though the manufacturer approves it, the AHJ says no way.

So, what did you do?

Why did the AHJ fuss, sounds like a good solution?

RC
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
That sounds like the same scenario. If you turn on lights in a certain order things will trip. Try it with same lights in different order they won't trip. We found a filter that takes out the noise from LED's and even though the manufacturer approves it, the AHJ says no way.

So, what did you do?

Why did the AHJ fuss, sounds like a good solution?

RC

My guess would be the AHJ (as would I) would question if the filter removes the AFCI protection from the circuit.

If there is such a filter that can fix false tripping without effecting the protection and the manufacturers know about it why wouldn't it be incorporated into the AFCI design?
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
My guess would be the AHJ (as would I) would question if the filter removes the AFCI protection from the circuit.

If there is such a filter that can fix false tripping without effecting the protection and the manufacturers know about it why wouldn't it be incorporated into the AFCI design?


Cost :p
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The latest thing I did before Christmas was replace all of the AFCI's with most current breaker as (used siemens in this case) as of June 16, 2014 they installed additional filtering in AFCI breaker. So far no reports of problems.
Who paid for those replacements? I'm sure consumers will be happy to find out they need to replace all these AFCI's on an annual basis at current prices:(
 

anderdd

New User
Location
South Bend, IN
After months of diagnosing an intermittent "nuisance" ARC fault trip on a circuit protected by a Siemens QA115AFC this thread gave me a hint and ultimately a successful diagnosis. The afflicted circuit had a LED can retrofit "bulb" and when I removed that from use no more nuisance trips on Arc Fault. The retrofit is a GE model and UL listed bulb, made in China of course.

The trip would only occur when the bulb was on (single bulb in the circuit) and then a larger current draw device was energized, immediately on energizing the higher draw device the breaker would trip. What is weird is that immediately after the fault was cleared by resetting the breaker if you tried to reproduce the trip condition, lamp on and then energize higher draw device, the trip wouldn't occur. It would only trip after some time elapses with the lamp on. I think the Siemens device circuitry must monitor the slow leakage of current from the LED bulb driver and only after some amount has accumulated the condition is primed for a trip at higher draw.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
After months of diagnosing an intermittent "nuisance" ARC fault trip on a circuit protected by a Siemens QA115AFC this thread gave me a hint and ultimately a successful diagnosis. The afflicted circuit had a LED can retrofit "bulb" and when I removed that from use no more nuisance trips on Arc Fault. The retrofit is a GE model and UL listed bulb, made in China of course.

The trip would only occur when the bulb was on (single bulb in the circuit) and then a larger current draw device was energized, immediately on energizing the higher draw device the breaker would trip. What is weird is that immediately after the fault was cleared by resetting the breaker if you tried to reproduce the trip condition, lamp on and then energize higher draw device, the trip wouldn't occur. It would only trip after some time elapses with the lamp on. I think the Siemens device circuitry must monitor the slow leakage of current from the LED bulb driver and only after some amount has accumulated the condition is primed for a trip at higher draw.
Another interpretation would be that the LED driver intermittently generates a spurious series arc signature which is incorrectly (or deliberately?) latched in the breaker software and held until the series arc current requirement is also met.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
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jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
I personally would take the AFCI out. If inspectors are around Id substitute them for GFP breakers hoping they don't notice. GFP breaker will provide the same protection without nuisance tripping.


So you'd take out a required AFCI and needlessly assume all of the responsibility of doing so?


JAP>
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Yes

Doubt anyone would come after me and I won't worry about depriving the occupants of an empty fire extinguisher.

If shown on the plans, Electrical Engineers (mbrooke) can't be lynched for someone else removing required safety devices.
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
If shown on the plans, Electrical Engineers (mbrooke) can't be lynched for someone else removing required safety devices.


The "Engineer" is the one indicating they'd remove the AFCI's.

JAP>
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Doubt the resi electrician would get in much trouble.

I'd do it too. I would have to charge such a high price to cover my potential loss if I were to guarantee no nuisance tripping, yet AFCI manufacturers continue to sell products that don't work and are guaranteed those sales because of their lobbying to get them into code. Leaves us contractors as the middle man and we get shafted by either the manufacturers or the customer regardless. Keep your insurance paid up and be prepared to close shop if the worst happens:happysad:
 
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