grounding the body

Status
Not open for further replies.

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
I could use some help regarding what I know can be a controversial topic, body grounding or earthing. My electrical background is not great.

I know this topic has been addressed in this forum, there's a pretty long thread from 2010 started by Karl Riley but much of that thread is back and forth regarding scams and tin foil hats so to speak. Karl asked about NEC compliance but I want to ask some different questions which are purely electrical in nature.

The book "Earthing" by Clint Ober
http://www.amazon.com/Earthing-Most-Important-Health-Discovery/dp/1591202833
And the web site that apparently is associated with it http://www.earthinginstitute.com

There will be readers of this book who do not understand electricity. Many are not going to know about stray current and the problems dairy farmers have had with it. If someone hooks themselves up to a ground rod and has heart palpitations, they likely won't continue but what if they have a restful sleep and energized earth slowly makes them sick? This is about safety beyond lightning strikes because many people will take that risk if the forecast is clear. My concern is with the potential negligence of these authors and the "earthing industry" to not warn about risks.

The site has an article that they've intended to address stray voltage: http://www.earthinginstitute.net/?page_id=2486
To summarize they claim the risk of stray current is only from single wire earth return system (SWER) but to my knowledge, this is not the case with the dairy farmers problems in this country.
I watched Mike Holt's video from March 2012 on stray voltage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAs_FmdxXhQ&list=PLUYgog5IuqEbkcaCfnxXjWD_tT4ETWLJB
which opened my eyes to things I had no clue about, especially in regards to neutral to earth voltage (NEV).

So I do have some specific electrical questions to ask. If its not within the bounds of this forum then I apologize but I wanted to get some information from people who understand electricity and this practice seems to be trending over the last few years so some of you may have family members or clients who ask you about it.

So with that framework for my questions, give me some feedback to let me know to go ahead and ask them or return any useful thoughts you may have on the subject. Or if its not appropriate for this forum, I'll move on.
 

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
I appreciate that Dennis

I appreciate that Dennis

1. This idea I've read that stray current comes from the electric grid using the earth as a neutral return path (in addition to neutral wire). That they are "dumping" electricity into the ground. Does this make any sense? But I don't doubt these dairy farms are dealing with stray currents. Mike Holt's video explaining the neutral to earth current (NEV) makes more sense to me considering the equipment the animals are making contact with while standing on the ground would be bonded to utility neutral. If a grounding rod is 50 feet from all electrical devices/sources, there are no buried cable ground faults, and no lightning strikes, can we be sure that current will not find its way to an insulated wire connected to that ground rod?

2. If say the NEV was 2v from the pole and the house wiring is grounded, why doesn't that remove the NEV?
 

mayanees

Senior Member
Location
Westminster, MD
Occupation
Electrical Engineer and Master Electrician
Earthing

Earthing

I think you're mixing topics. Earthing as referenced in the links you provided refers to bringing your body's residual voltage to zero volts, or earth potential. Stray currents and dairy-farm voltages is about improperly wired power distribution systems.
I can speak to the earthing concept, as I have experienced it first-hand. I learned about it after I learned how to run barefoot about 5 years ago. Someone sent me a link to the documentary "Grounded" which was all about earthing. She wrote that I am getting the benefits of earthing by running barefoot. I bought into it, mainly because my 86 year-old mom had arthritic pains that had her hating life. I bought a $125 grounded bedsheet and installed it on her bed. It's a metallic-lined sheet that slips over the end of the bed. A jumper runs from it to either earth ground at a receptacle, or into the earth using a mini ground rod that comes with the kit.
Within three days all of her arthritic pains were gone. Six weeks later she tells me that she woke up and was feeling stiff again, only to find out that the lady who changed her sheets didn't reconnect the ground clip. Once re-attached, she felt good again in the morning. It's been about two years now, and she is a huge advocate, even handing out literature to all of her red-hat old lady friends.
My brother had a very similar experience. He was too cheap to pay for the kit, so he used a screen off the paper machine where we used to work, and connected that to earth ground. His relief took 2-3 weeks, and his back and leg pains were gone. His wife felt immediate relief from heel pain for the first time in 20 years. A couple months later his pains returned, only to find that the connector lost continuity. He fixed it and was pain-free in the morning. My wife also found relief from shoulder soreness associated with excessive training for a 4.4 mile swim she does every year.
Removing the residual voltage on your body acts as an anti-inflammatory which is the result of free electron flow with the earth. I measured the voltage on my body when sitting on our couch @ 270 mv. It rose to 500 mv when I rubbed my feet together on the carpet. It rose to 7 Volts when running on the treadmill. By holding a grounded wire, it drops to earth potential, 0 volts.
The phenomenon has to do with the fact that our feet have lost contact with the earth through the insulated soles in our shoes. We rarely come in contact with earth, as a society, which is how we were meant to function. Google "Grounded documentary" and read the info that comes up on the first hit. There's a 2-minute trailer for the documentary, which is overly sensationalized, but still gets the point across.
It's generally recommended that you spend 20 minutes a day at earth's potential to feel the benefits. Sleeping on a grounded bedsheet gives a thorough dose.
I take allot of shit from people for running barefoot, but I've lost 60 pounds since I learned how, and my 56 year-old body feels like it's about 35. Barefoot running is impact free, as you catch yourself with every landing. It feels so good that I run at least one mile every day, for almost two straight years now. ... kind of a free fitness program.
And I'm sure there are plenty of folks rolling their eyes reading about my grounded stories, but I wouldn't be preaching them if it wasn't real. And that's not to say that everyone will feel relief from pain. But my contention is that if inflammation is your problem, earthing will help. And it's free to put your feet in the grass. And you may not need a medication aimed at reducing inflammation, that has a bunch of side-effects, like steroids.
 

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
Mixing topics

Mixing topics

My concern is what's safe and therapeutic for one person might be dangerous for another and it would have to do with the ground they are sticking that rod into. I am mixing topics but its because if stray currents, whatever the source of them, can impact dairy cows, it can impact humans sleeping with a wire to a ground rod. I'd like to first understand the ways ground currents happen and most importantly how to test for them.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I will not attempt to argue the idea of 'grounding' someone for health benefits. In a nutshell: it sounds like BS to me, but if it works for someone, then good for them.

I think that I can address bfrank's concerns, however:

When you connect a good electrode to earth (where good is a relative term set by the amount of current the electrode is expected to transfer to the earth), then that electrode will come to approximately 'local earth potential'. This means that the electrode will be at 0V relative to the piece of earth it is sitting in.

If you take two electrodes and place them in _different_ locations in the earth, then in general they will _not_ be at the same potential; there will very likely be _some_ voltage between them.

If you take two electrodes and place them in different locations in the earth, and then connect a wire between the two, then there will very likely be some current flowing on that wire. This current could be caused by 'stray voltage', eg utility distribution systems, or this current could have natural causes, for example lightning ground currents or even 'geomagnetic disturbance'.

The risk with 'grounding' is _not_ from having one electrode in the ground connected to your bed sheet. The risk is from having two or more electrodes and then somehow letting the person complete the connection between the two.

For example, the person could be in a conventionally wired house and have a 'grounded' metal lamp plugged into an ordinary receptacle and grounded by the ground pin. At the same time they could have their 'conductive bed sheet' connected to a totally separate grounding electrode. If they touch the lamp then current could flow from one electrode through their body to the other grounding electrode.

Anyone considering this sort of 'grounding' approach should (IMHO) carefully consider how they are grounding themselves and in particular be concerned about multiple disconnected grounding electrodes.

I do not see a mechanism by which this sort of 'grounding' could benefit a person. But I do see a distant possibility that somehow matching ones electrical potential to the bulk of one's surroundings could have an effect on health. So I question to ask would be: does 'grounding' have an health effect that is different from being inside (and in contact with) a 'Faraday Cage'?

-Jon
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
what's safe and therapeutic for one person might be dangerous for another

and it would have to do with the ground they are sticking that rod into.

if stray currents, ... can impact humans sleeping with a wire to a ground rod.

I'd like to first understand the ways ground currents happen and most importantly how to test for them.


I'll address this in terms of non-electrically knowledgeable since the mod has oked this thread.

a. the impact on cows is due to current flowing THRU them as they have 2 or more feet on the ground, current flows between 2 potentials, so takes 2 contact points. A person sleeping connected on one point to a ground rod will not have a current flowing thru them. The ground connection may effect the electric field on their body. At an extreme, if you sleep with a ground rod on one side of the house attached to your hand and another to your foot to the other side of the house, a nearby lightning strike can kill you - not an exaggeration. With just one ground wire to your body, since a reclining human body under say an electric blanket is about 200 pF or so at 60 Hz, the current thru you is less than 1 microamp - even if you are laying under an electric blanket.

b. safe and therapeutic is 'wide open' opinions vary from 'deadly' to 'beneficial'. Frequency, level, etc. make a huge difference, and takes a law firm to OK any 'advice'. Everything from TENs units to shock therapy to tazers to the electric chair. Some of it falls in the same category as sleeping with magnets or copper finger rings for arthritis.

c. imo sleeping attached to a ground wire is only beneficial if 'you THINK it is beneficial', peace of mind and all that.

d. ground currents happen due to 2 or more separated grounding systems, whether that be ground rods, rod and a building floor, or a conductive boat in a pond to ground rod in china. If you want to test a ground current you simply measure the voltage between 2 ground rods, then connect the 2 ground rods with a wire and measure the current in the wire, then use that data to approximately calculate how much current is flowing in the ground.

Back in the 1970/80s was involved in some court cases were worker claimed disability (leukemia) due to electric fields - as had myself been in high electric fields, paid attention, came away satisfied that I was at near zero risk. e.G. if ionization potential due to fields < about 12 eV, no risk. Need gamma or xrays to get that high. Gets more complicated from there, Maxwells equations and Poynting vectors and all that type stuff.

good luck with your information quest
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
My concern is what's safe and therapeutic for one person might be dangerous for another and it would have to do with the ground they are sticking that rod into. I am mixing topics but its because if stray currents, whatever the source of them, can impact dairy cows, it can impact humans sleeping with a wire to a ground rod. I'd like to first understand the ways ground currents happen and most importantly how to test for them.
For the cows to be effected by the stray current they have to have two points of contact with the earth or earth and a conductive object connected to earth, and those points of contact must have a voltage between them.

There would only be a single point of contact...the wire...for the human that wanted to be "earthed".
 

just the cowboy

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
newburgh,ny
a. the impact on cows is due to current flowing THRU them as they have 2 or more feet on the ground, current flows between 2 potentials, so takes 2 contact points.

Saw that in a corral for horses once. The ground grid under the corral (about 50 rods buried near fence charger) opened up halfway across and a fence wire was down on the other side of corral. It created a step potential on the return path to the charger, every time a horse stepped into this area they got shocked :eek:hmy: but if you touched it no shock. This was because of the distance between front and back feet. It was a large 20 mile 10,000 volt charger.
 

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
ground currents

ground currents

Thanks for the responses and how thoroughly explained they are. I appreciate the willingness to explain the why rather than just warn to not do it. Its a tough balance to entertain this type of question while being clear not to encourage it. I've tried to word my questions as regarding the laws of electricity and staying away from the biology of it. I've tried to avoid making this about the practice as there are plenty of other places on the net for that.

I think what people who do not have a strong electrical background (myself) too easily forget is the reason current flows. Understanding where voltage differences are going to occur goes a long way to making this practice safer. For me what's caused confusion is this statement you hear from people in alternative medicine fields who even claim to have an electrical background.

The statement goes like this:
"Electricity flows from the substation to your home wiring and the grid design is for it to flow back via the neutral wires. But we've outgrown the grid or its not well maintained so the power companies are dumping electricity into the ground. So what's happening is 80% of return current is traveling back to the substation via the earth rather than neutral wires because every electron must return to its source."

I realize now that this is a bogus statement on several counts but when you don't have an electrical background you don't know any better. I'm reading a book by Russ Allen about what he went through with stray voltage on his dairy farm. Even there he's recounting the testimony in the court case and the plantiff side is contending that wisconsin power company made changes to their lines which put his farm between the ground rods and the substation so that current is flowing through his property.

While its understandable that they could picture it this way, how can electricity travel through dirt like this? In the absence of nearby conductors, its going to dissipate, be absorbed by the earth. I can see that if a barn is in close enough proximity to a grounding electrode how a large enough voltage could find its way via underground conductors to equipment in the barn or if that equipment is bonded to the neutral. But you hear statements from some who are wanting to warn of the dangers of earthing. They say all over this country there are these ground currents from the grid. I get that there can be ground currents from lightning strikes or underground faults but they are talking about something different. If I=V/R then the earth's large R makes the "I" they are claiming impossible, right? How can expert witnesses in a court case can say such things unchallenged?
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The statement goes like this:
"Electricity flows from the substation to your home wiring and the grid design is for it to flow back via the neutral wires. But we've outgrown the grid or its not well maintained so the power companies are dumping electricity into the ground. So what's happening is 80% of return current is traveling back to the substation via the earth rather than neutral wires because every electron must return to its source."

I realize now that this is a bogus statement on several counts but when you don't have an electrical background you don't know any better.

Actually, that statement is quite accurate.

Electric current is 'pushed' by voltage difference, produced by some device that acts to 'pump' the charges. The vast majority of charges being pumped try to find their way back to the source that is doing the pumping. Any charges that go places other than the source will result in large voltage changes that quickly cancel any such 'not to source' current flow.

So electrons are going to try to flow in a circuit along all of the conductors connected to the source. The portion that takes any given path will be in inverse proportion to the resistance of that path.

The neutral of most electrical supply systems is connected to earthing electrodes at multiple places.

The earth is actually a pretty good conductor. Soil doesn't have very good conductivity per square inch like copper, but there are _lots_ of square inches of earth to go around and carry current.

how can electricity travel through dirt like this? In the absence of nearby conductors, its going to dissipate, be absorbed by the earth.

Nope. Totally wrong. The earth does not _absorb_ electricity. It conducts it back to the source. A minuscule part will be coupled to the earth itself as capacitive charging, but the bulk will be carried back to the source. The actual mechanism of conduction is very likely movement of ions in water rather than movement of electrons, but the flow of current will be back to the source.

If this flow of current is focused by conductive structures, then you can find locations that have relatively high voltage difference over the span of a cow.

-Jon
 

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
Jon, you're making my head hurt

Jon, you're making my head hurt

but that's good. I hate to waste your time explaining this to me. Do you have a good source to point me at to understand this? Its tough to wrap my head around charges flowing back to a source. It brings up too many questions b/c I'm missing something. What makes a charge unique that it goes back to source and how could it even find the path back? Magnetism?

So would you agree a good percentage of charges are returning via the earth and that this is a problem?
When we have our bare feet on the ground, is the current bypassing us b/c we are the same voltage?

Again appreciate your patience, with enough clues I'll eventually get it.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Nope. Totally wrong. The earth does not _absorb_ electricity. It conducts it back to the source. A minuscule part will be coupled to the earth itself as capacitive charging, but the bulk will be carried back to the source. The actual mechanism of conduction is very likely movement of ions in water rather than movement of electrons, but the flow of current will be back to the source.

If this flow of current is focused by conductive structures, then you can find locations that have relatively high voltage difference over the span of a cow.

-Jon
oh no, the earth does absorb energy, thats why the voltage drops along the way. the earth provides the path for this to happen. perhaps just a play on words, but just wanted to add clarity. it all boils down to joules (or pick your fav energy unit).
 

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
thread's run its course?

thread's run its course?

Ok so I wasn't asking for a physics lesson. Ended up doing some reading on maxwell's equations and getting a better but still fuzzy grip on what current is. So yea I can see how we'd expect current to return to the source even via the ground which would be why SWER systems function. Maybe a bungee cord is an analogy that works here but its not important and off the original topic. The topic was concern with the ground rod placement and whether there is a danger of picking up anything detrimental to health. Whether that be some sort of harmonics or the AC current itself. But when I describe my questions like that I can see its not an appropriate topic for this forum so I'll drop it. Thanks for the replies.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Okay, what you are basically asking for here is a description of how electricity flows. I suspect that you are going to have to go to some texts, but I'll give it a shot.

1) I guess it wasn't correct for me to say that the _charges_ try to find their way back to the source. What I meant to say is that the _electric current_ flows back to the source. The electric current is itself composed of moving charges, but not necessarily the _same_ charges.

When an electron gets pushed out one end of the 'source' an electron (any electron) has to move in to the other end. (Even more generally, it could be any unit negative charge, or even a positive charge going _out_ , but don't worry about that detail.)

2) The reason that the current must flow back to its source is that electric charges create electric fields, and electric fields apply forces to electric charges. Any time you separate charges, you create a voltage that will try to pull the charges back together. Electricity works because the charges are always pulling and pushing on each other. A separation of only a few charges will create enormous voltages.

If the charge leaving a source were not balanced by charge returning to that source, the voltage of the source would quickly be swamped by the voltage caused by the charge imbalance.

So it isn't the particular charge that is seeking to return to its source, but rather the net current flow of charges being pulled back to the source to keep things in balance.

3) When a charge moves 'downhill' in an electric field, electrical potential energy gets converted to kinetic energy, moving that charge. If the movement of that charge is impeded (say by banging into something else) then that kinetic energy will get dissipated as heat. When current moves through the earth, while the _current_ doesn't vanish into the earth, some of the energy of that current gets used up in heating the earth.

-Jon
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
but that's good. I hate to waste your time explaining this to me. Do you have a good source to point me at to understand this? Its tough to wrap my head around charges flowing back to a source. It brings up too many questions b/c I'm missing something. What makes a charge unique that it goes back to source and how could it even find the path back? Magnetism?

So would you agree a good percentage of charges are returning via the earth and that this is a problem?
When we have our bare feet on the ground, is the current bypassing us b/c we are the same voltage?

Again appreciate your patience, with enough clues I'll eventually get it.

there's a lot of anecdotal information running about on the web about this, as well as everything else,
and the hard part is sorting the 13% facts from the swill.

everything is about a difference of potential, and frequency, and how to harness that.
nikola tesla probably understood it better than almost anyone else who's come along, and a lot of
how we use electricity has to do with stuff he developed.

analogies sometimes help, and sometimes confuse more. imagine water flowing downhill. the elevation
is the difference of potential, and the water will take ALL paths back to the lowest level, favoring ones with
the least resistance.

something they teach in working with high voltage, is that if a very high voltage goes to ground nearby, the
emf flows out from the point of contact like ripples when a pebble hits a pond.

it is a linear gradient expanding outwards, and if you are standing nearby, where your feet are placed depends
on how much shock you get, if any.

if you are at right angles to the dissipating potential, there isn't much of a delta, and you don't get shocked.
if your feet are in line with the potential, the farther they are apart, the more voltage you will have available to
shock you with.

therefore, if you have something go to ground nearby, as in an electrical switch rack, it is suggested that you
keep your feet together, and bunny hop out of the area. when told this in a safety meeting, i smiled, nodded,
and thought... the hell i will.... if 230,000 volts go to ground nearby, my feet will not be on the ground at the
same time, and probably won't touch the ground more than 3 or 4 times between where i'm standing, and my
car in the parking lot.....

as to health hazards of incidental stray current, i've not been convinced of the risk myself. when you take the
13% legitimate facts, and stir in crystals, pyramid power, and tinfoil hats for protection, it's hard to sort out.
 
The statement goes like this:
"Electricity flows from the substation to your home wiring and the grid design is for it to flow back via the neutral wires. But we've outgrown the grid or its not well maintained so the power companies are dumping electricity into the ground. So what's happening is 80% of return current is traveling back to the substation via the earth rather than neutral wires because every electron must return to its source."

I will just add for completeness that that statement would be for direct current or alternating current for 1/120th of a second. With AC the current isnt continually "leaving" on one conductor and "returning" on the other conductor. This is a cool animated graphic:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3-phase_flow.gif
 

bfrank

Member
Location
United States
something they teach in working with high voltage, is that if a very high voltage goes to ground nearby, the
emf flows out from the point of contact like ripples when a pebble hits a pond.

This is what I'm still struggling with. It makes sense to visualize the EMF hitting the ground and the wave going in every direction and the wave weakens with distance.

If these things are true:
1. an electron has a 1.6x10^-19 coulomb of charge
2. in AC the electron just vibrates and doesn't really move positionally
3. an amp is a measure of current that is 1 coulomb per moving per second, or 6.25x10^18 electrons moving per second
4. one of maxwell's equations describes how an electric field spins to generate the magnetic field which spins to generate the electric field an so on.
5. a volt is one joule per coulomb
6. electric and magnetic fields have a force or energy that can be measured in joules.

So if the above is correct, can anyone put it together for me when ac current hits the ground? If the electrons aren't really moving off the wire, then what is? Is it just the emf and its joules?

Why do I even care?

I'm not as concerned with the source of the current or the current that flows back to it on the neutral conductor. I'm concerned with a transformer grounded across the street or the poles or my house GEC or my neighbor's GEC. If the electrons aren't moving position, then wouldn't it be true that the charge isn't either? But its back and forth movement is generating electric and magnetic fields and transferring energy in terms of joules? So then what flows through the ground near my house and how does it flow, how does it resolve or dissipate? Am I making any sense with this?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ultimate grounding of the body happens when they bury your carcass after you are dead;)

Of course this doesn't happen if you are in a burial vault of any kind:blink:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top