ignore the code becuase AHJ is indifferent?

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nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
We are subcontracted to do a new fire alarm install. Building owners EE drafts plans. Primary contractor, does shop drawings (they won't get reviewed by the EE.). We are being paid for install labor and materials only. The primary contractors copy the EE's plans exactly. we thoroughly review for compliance.

There is a state code amendment applying to fire alarms, which I will not get in to here. The EE and the primary contractor omit it from the plans. It is a prescriptive design not performance based, there isn't a reason for it to be omitted in any case. I point out to the primary contractor the omission, they ignore my emails and phone calls on this, but answer all others.

The primary contractor got away with leaving out this detail on a project a few months ago in the same jurisdiction. The don't care now, because it's on my shoulders and don't want to do an add/change. The EE's plans state all applicable state/local codes shall apply to install regardless if it's contained in the plan. We are only contracted to provide what was on their shop drawings, anything additional is a change order. ( I want the change ,it's code minimum so why not? and it would be $7-10k extra for us)

It appears the AHJ is indifferent to or inept to the state amendment, which would supersede any local amendments, which there are none. The primary contractor appears only willing to address this if the AHJ fails it on inspection. AHJ's around here causally review plans, but approve installs, and it didn't get picked up on plans review. Even if they miss something on plans review, its still on the installer to certify the install is complaint to all applicable codes, which I can't.

If I tell the AHJ he missed something on plans review, I may piss off all involved parties. If I fail the inspection, I waste the inspectors and my time. The AHJ Migh even let it slide/ignore it. He missed it or didn't care about it on a building just finished this month next to this project (same type occupancy- retail)

I know an off the record conversation with the AHJ might work, but was wondering what you might do in the situation? I was hoping to avoid going around the primary contractor to the EOR, it's the owners EE and we don't work for or have ever had contact them.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Will liability accrue to you if you do it their way, knowingly in violation of the amendment, and someone dies in that building? I think that's your answer.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Will liability accrue to you if you do it their way, knowingly in violation of the amendment, and someone dies in that building? I think that's your answer.

Yes it will, and it's my professional duty to address this. I'm looking for perspective from others that may have have slightly similar situations and how it was handled.
 

__dan

Senior Member
If it's a violation and you have a license on it, it could be negligence. Maybe not yours solely but certainly named in the group.

If it's a violation, you knew about it prior, and proceeded without giving notice, it could be willful negligence. Giving notice diligently could give you some whistleblower protection which you may need down the road, even years later, when you get named and are able to say, 'please reference this email dated 1/16/09 when I advised this was a violation'.

Verbal conversations, I usually assume in business are like they never happened. My assumption in a verbal conversation with the Inspector would be that he would see your concern and try to help you make money by citing it for you, creating a demand (by the State) for additional work. I would automatically guess that as an essential first step, to consult verbally with the Inspector.

You have no control over the Inspectors response to the disclosure nor may you assume. It is a premise that must be tested. His job is also on the line for violations occurring in his jurisdiction, which could be just the Town's F/A or all heaven and earth.

Failing that and if you wanted to PO some, in the statute where the code is adopted and the Inspector gets his authority, there will be a regulation, statute, saying "local Inspector to enforce the code" which you could cite a violation of, at the next level up with the agency that issues "his" license.

I don't see that you (or I) would have any choice about proceeding with work that may be found non compliant.
 

__dan

Senior Member
Yes it will, and it's my professional duty to address this. I'm looking for perspective from others that may have have slightly similar situations and how it was handled.

Another day, another ...

I have a site walk through scheduled for Tuesday the week after, with the site safety officer, for me to disclose violations I see, and avoid negligence for seeing and not reporting. My written statement following will exceed 15 pages, just in the first round to get the process started. Then it will be not my concern who gets PO and who may run from the law.

" ... by statute for code enforcement the State names as its representative the local BO. Under the law I have the right to name my own representative. I name the same person, the local BO, as my representative ..."
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
This may be out of context but in resi there have been many many many times the drawings passed through all hands including the city and landed on my bosses desk and there are code violations. No plug in entry and there's a 6' wall. You get the point. In the end no body wanted to fix the problem before it's a PROBLEM. If the only thing that's gonna get hurt is somebody s wallet, follow the drawings and let the red tag tell them. Those who aren't electricians don't care about code like we do. A green tag to us is doing what we should to them it's a waste of money
 

69gp

Senior Member
Location
MA
I would say that the burden is on you to provide what was on the prints. If the prints made the statement that the install is to meet all codes weather shown or not then unless you provided exclusions in your bid your on the hook. It's almost like a design build. If you knew the prints did not meet the code before bidding you have an obligation to inquire to make sure you cover the complete job.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
If you have legitimate contract that limits to what is drawn and not " the EC is responsible for a code compliant installation" then go ahead stand your ground. Send off a certified mail letter stating your position.

Now if you accepted the job based on the specs on the plans hoping to get a change then I have no sympathy for you.
I have turned down many a jobs based on this type of crap. Some make it work some don't.
I think a EE should be brought up on discipline for knowingly doing such.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Can you afford to walk away from the job and tell them where to shove it?

I partly say that in jest but it sure is a thought when you can get no cooperation.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
The primary contractor got away with leaving out this detail on a project a few months ago in the same jurisdiction. The don't care now, because it's on my shoulders and don't want to do an add/change. The EE's plans state all applicable state/local codes shall apply to install regardless if it's contained in the plan. We are only contracted to provide what was on their shop drawings, anything additional is a change order. ( I want the change ,it's code minimum so why not? and it would be $7-10k extra for us)

.

Is the EE in cahoots with the owner to omit this feature to get a lower price for the building owner ? Then when it hits the fan & rolls downhill it is all the Electrical Contractors fault to not provide a complete code compliant installation ?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
This may be out of context but in resi there have been many many many times the drawings passed through all hands including the city and landed on my bosses desk and there are code violations. No plug in entry and there's a 6' wall. You get the point. In the end no body wanted to fix the problem before it's a PROBLEM. If the only thing that's gonna get hurt is somebody s wallet, follow the drawings and let the red tag tell them. Those who aren't electricians don't care about code like we do. A green tag to us is doing what we should, to them it's a waste of money
There is some real world wisdom right there and it's not exclusive to resi work.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
If you have legitimate contract that limits to what is drawn and not " the EC is responsible for a code compliant installation" then go ahead stand your ground. Send off a certified mail letter stating your position.

Now if you accepted the job based on the specs on the plans hoping to get a change then I have no sympathy for you.
I have turned down many a jobs based on this type of crap. Some make it work some don't.
I think a EE should be brought up on discipline for knowingly doing such.

The job was not accepted assuming a change order, I am only responsible for the items on the shop drawing. Anything I have to provide above and beyond is a change order.

I'm trying not to get caught up between the owner/EE/primary contractor. It appears the EE did a poor job, but has the disclaimer about the drawings missing anything is still the EC's problem. I don't know if the primary contractor is on the hook for any adds or not, it's not my concern when we are discussing minimum compliance. I even informed them about this before they gave me a contract, but they were fine with the EE's layout. I would guess they don't want to tell the owner they have to spend more after giving them a price and having it accepted. They want to save the owner money which of course builds good will for them

The owner is a large corporation I will never contract directly with, so I don't care about their bottom line, just maintaining compliance of my work and my relationship with the primary contractor
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The job was not accepted assuming a change order, I am only responsible for the items on the shop drawing. Anything I have to provide above and beyond is a change order.

I'm trying not to get caught up between the owner/EE/primary contractor. It appears the EE did a poor job, but has the disclaimer about the drawings missing anything is still the EC's problem. I don't know if the primary contractor is on the hook for any adds or not, it's not my concern when we are discussing minimum compliance. I even informed them about this before they gave me a contract, but they were fine with the EE's layout. I would guess they don't want to tell the owner they have to spend more after giving them a price and having it accepted. They want to save the owner money which of course builds good will for them

The owner is a large corporation I will never contract directly with, so I don't care about their bottom line, just maintaining compliance of my work and my relationship with the primary contractor

I suppose I am Missing something, You were aware of the issue prior to accepting the contract.
The specs you agreed to had a clause stating you need to conform to the code.
Did you redline the error or some other method stating that your price and agreement does not include this error you speak of? If not good luck to you. If you knowingly constructed a substandard installation you and only your company is at fault.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
I suppose I am Missing something, You were aware of the issue prior to accepting the contract.
The specs you agreed to had a clause stating you need to conform to the code.
Did you redline the error or some other method stating that your price and agreement does not include this error you speak of? If not good luck to you. If you knowingly constructed a substandard installation you and only your company is at fault.

We are a sub, the primary contractor showed us the EE's drawings with this note. This note and the omitted items were conveyed. We then got a contract for what is on their shop drawings, those notes are not.

I don't even know or care at this point whether or not the primary contractor is on the hook for any adds. They may have a separate contract with the owner that supersedes the drawings.

The job just started, the primary contractor got a permit based on their deficient shop drawings. This is the crux of my issue. The AHJ may or may not care, but I cannot certify the install. So I will be stuck showing the AHJ my record of completion with a deficiency listed that could be avoided. that is a waste of time and is stupid. I want to address it before that happens.
 
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Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
You build it below the standard it's you companies fault. That is clear!
What most don't get is that there is a unwritten rule that the Licensed installer performing a less than compliant installation is subject to consequences. Nobody says you are forced to do the work!

Send a Certified letter to all demanding a response " A response of Well lets wait to get red tagged on it" is not appropriate. Inspectors do not catch everything nor can they be expected to these days. It is the installers Job to perform a code compliant install regardless of Who is watching. Perform all the work unrelated to the issue until an appropriate answer is provided.
Or be on the hook.

Place in the Certified letter you will not be responsible for compliance if this issue is not resolved properly.

Good Luck.

PS don't think for one minute that i don't get your dilemma. I am just becoming crotchety these days and don't care who get's pissed off. This kind of gamesmanship needs to cease. We have a EE on this forum who thinks that they can provide incomplete and inaccurate drawings and specifications because that is all that he is being paid for. Then the blame is placed on the Contractor. There needs to be discipline action take on these EE just as the EC would face for a none compliant install. We EC rely on EE because we are not EE. If we were our stamp would be on the drawings!!!!!
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
If it's an issue of code compliance then state the problem , somebody here will tell you if it must be done by code or if its an option. If there is an article, then the chief electrical inspector might help you..
I've found that approved plans amount to little.
A former boss would call for a wall rough then tell the insp. They ran out of money so these got deleted. Get a green tag. Then finish and when the insp. asked later on. He d say they found some money and said add it back. .
If you took the work hoping to get the omited and you're sure you're right. Jam the inspector up on his walk through and ask him to sign off on not doing it.
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
We are subcontracted to do a new fire alarm install. Building owners EE drafts plans. Primary contractor, does shop drawings (they won't get reviewed by the EE.). We are being paid for install labor and materials only. The primary contractors copy the EE's plans exactly. we thoroughly review for compliance.

There is a state code amendment applying to fire alarms, which I will not get in to here. The EE and the primary contractor omit it from the plans. It is a prescriptive design not performance based, there isn't a reason for it to be omitted in any case. I point out to the primary contractor the omission, they ignore my emails and phone calls on this, but answer all others.

The primary contractor got away with leaving out this detail on a project a few months ago in the same jurisdiction. The don't care now, because it's on my shoulders and don't want to do an add/change. The EE's plans state all applicable state/local codes shall apply to install regardless if it's contained in the plan. We are only contracted to provide what was on their shop drawings, anything additional is a change order. ( I want the change ,it's code minimum so why not? and it would be $7-10k extra for us)

It appears the AHJ is indifferent to or inept to the state amendment, which would supersede any local amendments, which there are none. The primary contractor appears only willing to address this if the AHJ fails it on inspection. AHJ's around here causally review plans, but approve installs, and it didn't get picked up on plans review. Even if they miss something on plans review, its still on the installer to certify the install is complaint to all applicable codes, which I can't.

If I tell the AHJ he missed something on plans review, I may piss off all involved parties. If I fail the inspection, I waste the inspectors and my time. The AHJ Migh even let it slide/ignore it. He missed it or didn't care about it on a building just finished this month next to this project (same type occupancy- retail)

I know an off the record conversation with the AHJ might work, but was wondering what you might do in the situation? I was hoping to avoid going around the primary contractor to the EOR, it's the owners EE and we don't work for or have ever had contact them.

I would get it in writing from the electrical inspector to cover yourself, you do not want to be paying that $7-10 grand yourself.
 

bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
there is a unwritten rule that the Licensed installer performing a less than complia

there is a unwritten rule that the Licensed installer performing a less than complia

You build it below the standard it's you companies fault. That is clear!
What most don't get is that there is a unwritten rule that the Licensed installer performing a less than compliant installation is subject to consequences. Nobody says you are forced to do the work!

No there is not. I am an installer not an engineer. I can point out probelms with the design that I know of and that is the extent of my liability. OP bid a scope of work based on design drawings only. Let it fail, submit a change order based on AHJ requirements, get paid. There are reasons to use qualifiers on your proposals.
 

cdslotz

Senior Member
Every time an EE draws so much as a pull station on a drawing, he breaks the law unless he is a licensed FA Designer.
Having said that, by drawing a few strobes and pulls and smokes, shows his intent for a complete system.
The note "The EE's plans state all applicable state/local codes shall apply to install regardless if it's contained in the plan" pretty much makes this a design/build.

You said you are installing labor and materials only. Is the prime contractor responsible for hiring a FA Sub for the design/drawings/ and equipment devices that you will install?
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Every time an EE draws so much as a pull station on a drawing, he breaks the law unless he is a licensed FA Designer.
Having said that, by drawing a few strobes and pulls and smokes, shows his intent for a complete system.
The note "The EE's plans state all applicable state/local codes shall apply to install regardless if it's contained in the plan" pretty much makes this a design/build.

You said you are installing labor and materials only. Is the prime contractor responsible for hiring a FA Sub for the design/drawings/ and equipment devices that you will install?

Correct.

Not all states have a direct prohibition against PE's practicing outside an area they have no proficiency. It's much more vague like- follow professional standards blah blah blah.... But NO one enforces this unless you turn in to a prick and complain multiple times about the same guy. It's too time consuming for me, but I want to.

It should be against the law for the PE to put in a caviet that requires the contractor to eat any costs for omitting items they leave out. Otherwise, what is the incentive for them to do decent work?????????? PE is a get out of jail free card.
 
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