box supports

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roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
Who says you can't and what type of wall are you using it in? Is it a fire wall?

Roger
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Assuming this is old work
well you got me, I realize the device terminal would be tight, but if you pinch of the bend in the clip, with your needle nose, maybe taping the device terminals would be wise but I never seen a problem with the combination. If their is a violation I will have to admit I have overlook it
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What is a Madison clip and a gem gem box?

Madison clip is a box support clamp that secures the box to the wall finish - AKA known as an "F" clamp in some areas.

I think Madison name in some areas comes from Madison Electric - one company that makes these items.

GEM box - I believe is the metal device boxes that are designed to remove sides and connect to other boxes in order to make multi-gang device boxes. Not sure where this name came from.
 
why cant we use madison clips on gem boxes?

Counter code: - Noun. Plural: Counter codes. Fictitious electrical code most often heard at the electric supply house counter. Sentences containing counter code typically begin with, "I heard you can't..." or "they say you can't..." Note that occurrences of counter code often occur at random times between the AHJ's normal code cycle adoption dates.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
I thought F clips or sheetrock clamps were made for 1g cut in boxes ,,,gangable boxes ,,,if they arent what was i supposed to be doing with them besides chunking them in the trash,
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I thought F clips or sheetrock clamps were made for 1g cut in boxes ,,,gangable boxes ,,,if they arent what was i supposed to be doing with them besides chunking them in the trash,
Boxes in fire rated walls must be supported by the structure not the finish, I was looking for a section to support this but can't find it in NEC, may be in other building codes.
 

roger

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Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
Boxes in fire rated walls must be supported by the structure not the finish, I was looking for a section to support this but can't find it in NEC, may be in other building codes.

It can be found in the UL Orange books.


From the UL Fire Resistance Directory


WALL AND PARTITION ASSEMBLIES

Metallic Eletrical Outlet Boxes

Listed single and double gang metallic outlet and switch boxes with metallic or nonmetalliccover plates may be used in bearing and nonbearing wood stud and steel stud walls with ratings not exceeding 2h. These walls shall have gypsum wallboard facings similar to those shown in Design Nos. U301,U411, and U425. The metallic outlet or switch boxes shall be securely fastened to the studs and the opening in the wallboard facing shall be cut so that the clearance between the box and the wallboard does not exceed 1/8 in. The surface area of individual metallic outlet or switch boxes shall not exceed 16 sq in. The aggregate surface area of the boxes shall not exceed 100 sq in per 100 sq ft of wall surface.


Roger
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Well Mr. Kwired and Mr Roger unless I am mis understanding it. How do you add a plug or switch in a non open wall? I may need to close my bank account and go on the run.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Well Mr. Kwired and Mr Roger unless I am mis understanding it. How do you add a plug or switch in a non open wall? I may need to close my bank account and go on the run.
Good question, but those are the rules - and I this is one that I have not seen much enforcement of, but I suppose you either need to locate an added box so it can be attached to a stud, provide additional support that does attach it to the structural members, or cut out a larger opening and have the finish repaired after you are done.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
When I worked in NYC-- many moons ago I believe Madison clips were outlawed but there were other styles that were okay.


This is a madison clip that I believe was banned. The box shown is a gem box. I can't find the other style... There are metal boxes that are old work style boxes


BoxAndClip.jpg



37111d1409102129-old-work-two-gang-junction-box-options-6638761.jpg
215160_front200.jpg
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
When I worked in NYC-- many moons ago I believe Madison clips were outlawed but there were other styles that were okay.


This is a madison clip that I believe was banned. The box shown is a gem box. I can't find the other style... There are metal boxes that are old work style boxes

Interesting. I guess there must be regional slang for these boxes as well. I've been googling Gem and haven't found anything. I also haven't found what I was taught to call them - wall cases. We used round backed, regular, deep, shallow and pregnant wall cases with ears for old work and nail-on, side-arm and side-strap wall cases for new work, but none of those terms show up in google. By the time I started, any box with ears was considered an old work box since nobody was using the metal straps that you inserted the ears into for new work in plaster houses anymore. Lots of suppliers now call them switch boxes, but that seems weird to me since it implies you can't install a receptacle in one.

I also use the name Madison bars, although some guys here call them F-clips. It also seems like a lot of people don't know that there's a top and bottom to them and I find them installed upside down a lot. In this region Madison bars are a lot more common in old work than saddle straps on wall cases, maybe because saddle straps are not reusable?
 
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