NEC says this?

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FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
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Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
2011 NEC, this says #4 copper is ok for 100A OCD?? how so, #4 ampacity is not 100A for any wire type. would it not be min to use #3Cu or #2AL ?
chart.jpg


seen in
http://www.barr-thorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Digest-176-NEC-Tables.pdf
 

Henley

Member
Location
Chesapeake Bay
2011 NEC, this says #4 copper is ok for 100A OCD?? how so, #4 ampacity is not 100A for any wire type. would it not be min to use #3Cu or #2AL ?
chart.jpg


seen in
http://www.barr-thorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Digest-176-NEC-Tables.pdf

It is somewhat taken out of Context. While table 310.15 b7 in the NEC, does indicate 100 amp for #4, it comes with a few guidelines.
First the Original Table specifies on 90 Degree Wire and The NEC Text that proceeds the Table specifies "SERVICE" Feeders, not ALL Feeders.
SERVICE Feeders are given some wiggle room in NEC, because they are special type feeders. I agree it is somewhat confusing based on the BARR-Thorp citing.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
It is somewhat taken out of Context. While table 310.15 b7 in the NEC, does indicate 100 amp for #4, it comes with a few guidelines.
First the Original Table specifies on 90 Degree Wire and The NEC Text that proceeds the Table specifies "SERVICE" Feeders, not ALL Feeders.
SERVICE Feeders are given some wiggle room in NEC, because they are special type feeders. I agree it is somewhat confusing based on the BARR-Thorp citing.

the table i posted does not say "SERVICE Feeders" , it says "service and feeder conductors". from that where do you get "not all feeders"?
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Only feeders that are between the main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies all loads that are associated with the dwelling unit are covered in the table.
so thats basically the poco meter and service panel. but why the allowance for a wire size that is less than ampacity chart? doesnt make sense at all given this type of feeder usually has continuous current on them. it would make more sense if they went up one wire size, etc.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
so thats basically the poco meter and service panel. but why the allowance for a wire size that is less than ampacity chart? doesnt make sense at all given this type of feeder usually has continuous current on them. it would make more sense if they went up one wire size, etc.
Perhaps continuous but rarely at maximum current level per Article 220 calculation.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Perhaps continuous but rarely at maximum current level per Article 220 calculation.
understood, but to my point, why wouldnt they just choose the next size up? wouldnt you go through 220 calc before saying "its a 100A service" ?? if you are already saying "100A main OCD" then the wire from poco to main OCD should support that, no? perhps the #4Cu for 100A is meaning that the 100A OCD is already been oversized based on the non-continuous load + 125% of continuous load calc for proper OCD sizing? but i am suspecting that a dwelling will have small continuous load, thus the 100A OCD will not be oversized by large %.
 
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Henley

Member
Location
Chesapeake Bay
the table i posted does not say "SERVICE Feeders" , it says "service and feeder conductors". from that where do you get "not all feeders"?

IF you read the actual article text of 310.15(b)7, you will see the where the use of the table is limited to only certain Feeders. In the NEC, it proceeds the table you mentioned (which BTW is also taken out of context...incomplete)
The text you quoted in your OP is taken out of context as it refers to NEC. I tried to post this for you but don't know how to post
PDF snapshots...sorry.
Also, keep in mind the POCO does not have to follow NEC Rules. Their section of Service conductors are often not in line with what the NEC requires.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
understood, but to my point, why wouldnt they just choose the next size up? wouldnt you go through 220 calc before saying "its a 100A service" ?? if you are already saying "100A main OCD" then the wire from poco to main OCD should support that, no? perhps the #4Cu for 100A is meaning that the 100A OCD is already been oversized based on the non-continuous load + 125% of continuous load calc for proper OCD sizing? but i am suspecting that a dwelling will have small continuous load, thus the 100A OCD will not be oversized by large %.

It seems to me, and take the following for what it is worth that the NFPA knows that the NEC dwelling unit calculations result in services and feeders supplying an entire dwelling unit that are larger than really needed.

So instead of changing the calculations they are just giving a break with this allowance for only dwelling units served by 120/240 single phase systems.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
IF you read the actual article text of 310.15(b)7, you will see the where the use of the table is limited to only certain Feeders. In the NEC, it proceeds the table you mentioned (which BTW is also taken out of context...incomplete)
The text you quoted in your OP is taken out of context as it refers to NEC. I tried to post this for you but don't know how to post
PDF snapshots...sorry.
Also, keep in mind the POCO does not have to follow NEC Rules. Their section of Service conductors are often not in line with what the NEC requires.

no prob. looks like for 2014 they are using an 83% rule. maybe it was the same for my quote that came from NEC 2011? just seems odd to undersize the wire from the std ampacity table.. just be easier if the sizing was consistent. if #4Cu is good for 100A OCD service then #4Cu should be good for 100A branch circuit (odd example). i guess i am wondering the reasoning behind this 83% rule for service and feeder conductors.

Adobe Reader tip, you can take snapshot via Edit --> Take Snapshot (you draw fence around what you want), it then copies to clipboard, of which you can paste into Paint and save as pic, then attach to your post.

http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2013/05/16/whats-happening-to-table-310-15b7/

It seems to me, and take the following for what it is worth that the NFPA knows that the NEC dwelling unit calculations result in services and feeders supplying an entire dwelling unit that are larger than really needed.

So instead of changing the calculations they are just giving a break with this allowance for only dwelling units served by 120/240 single phase systems.
seems silly, no. why make the NEC code more complicated? why not just match the ampacity table so that the service panel main OCD is not greater than wire ampacity? why undersize it by 17%?



 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
seems silly, no. why make the NEC code more complicated? why not just match the ampacity table so that the service panel main OCD is not greater than wire ampacity? why undersize it by 17%?
The ampacity tables are real numbers based on physics. The load calculation numbers are made up numbers based on little. The dwelling unit conductor sizes are based on years of data from the utility companies as to the actual dwelling unit loads. Sure there could be some unusual conditions where the "over protected" conductors could be overheated a bit before the service OCPD tripped, but those cases would be rare.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
You can read all about the 83% here:

6-49a Log #CP604 NEC-P06 Final Action: Accept
(310.15(B)(7))
________________________________________________________________
TCC Action: The Correlating Committee directs that the panel clarify
their action on this proposal.
The Correlating Committee also directs the panel to revise the
Informational Note as it contains permissive language, i.e. the word
?may?.
This action will be considered as a public comment.
Submitter: Code-Making Panel 6,
Recommendation: Delete Table 310.15(B)(7) and replace 310.15(B)(7) with
the following:
(7) 120/240 Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For service
and feeder conductors of 120/240-volt, single-phase, individual dwelling unit
one-family, two-family, and multifamily service ratings from 100 through 400
amperes, an adjustment factor of 0.83 of the service ampere rating shall be
permitted to be used to determine the size of the ungrounded conductors. The
grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded
conductors, provided that the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are
met.
Informational No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other correction or
adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.
Informational No. 2: See example DXXX in Annex D.
Substantiation: It was determined that during the 1956 Proceedings of the
Sixteenth NFPA Annual Meeting that 84 percent was used to establish the
aluminum residential service conductor size. However, if the panel used 84
percent in the changed language, it would have resulted in larger sizes for some
of the conductors, compared to the sizes in the 2011 NEC. Since the panel had
no technical substantiation to justify these changes, 83 percent was used to
maintain consistency with the sizes in the 2011 Table 310.15(B)(7).
In order to address the various proposals submitted suggesting changes to
310.15(B)(7), the panel analyzed the existing language and determined that the
conductor sizes in Table 310.15(B)(7) are equivalent to those that would be
used if a 0.83 multiplier was applied to each service ampere rating. The
resulting conductor size will be the same as existing text in Table 310.15(B)(7),
if the same conductor types and installation conditions are applied.
The informational note was added to make it clear that adjustment and
correction factors apply depending on conditions of use. This action no longer
requires the definition of a ?main power feeder? in 310.15(B)(7).
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 10
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
WALL, C.: Removal of the table does not add clarity or usability to the NEC.
Comment on Affirmative:
CLINE, S.: This proposal is the result of many, many hours of panel member
time over many code cycles. It is intended to clearly and easily express the
ongoing intent of the panel over these many code cycles of misinterpretation.
This wording gives a simple ?duty cycle? type adjustment which, through a
simple mathematic multiplication, yields a minimum ampacity requirement for
conductor sizing. Hopefully the twelve submitters who also spent their time
trying to resolve the misunderstandings will be satisfied with this result.
It recognizes the long-known diversity of load for this exact class of load. It
recognizes that conditions of installation may also affect the ampacity of the
conductor. It recognizes that feeders, only if sized in relation to the service
rating, may safely be allowed the same diversity adjustment since they are
either carrying 100% of the diversified load, OR only loads too small to change
the effective diversity have been removed ahead of the feeder, OR large enough
loads have been removed ahead of the feeder to make the 17% adjusted
ampacity a moot point. The concerns about increased dwelling loads in general
is addressed in 230.79 where the service rating amperage itself is determined.
It should now be clear that while feeders may also use the diversity
adjustment, it must be based on the 230.79 service rating, not the size of the
OCPD for the feeder. If you run a 200 amp feeder from a 200 amp rated
service, you get to use the adjustment, start with a 166 minimum ampacity
conductor, apply any other required adjustments, and choose your conductor. If
you run a 100 amp feeder from a 200 amp rated service, you still get use the
adjustment, but of course the 166 minimum ampacity conductor then required
might not be an advantage over the normal 100 amp conductor. You may not
use 100 amps (the feeder OCPD size) to apply the adjustment to - you must use
the service rating.
Separate issue No. 1:
Please note: I believe that the following editorial changes to the new wording
recommendation of 6-49a need to be made for the publications of the ROP and
Draft.
Final Edited wording:
(7) 120/240-Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For service
and feeder conductors of 120/240-volt, single-phase, individual dwelling units
of one-family, two-family, and multifamily service ratings of 100 through 400
amperes, 83 percent of the 230.79 service ampere rating shall be permitted to
be used as the minimum ampacity to determine the size of the ungrounded
conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the
ungrounded conductors, provided that the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and
230.42 are met.
Informational Note No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other
correction or adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.
Informational Note No. 2: See example DXXX in Annex D.
Editorial changes to be considered (in order of occurrence):
(Legislative text will not paste into this comment area.)
1) change ?an adjustment factor of 0.83? to ?83 percent?
Examples elsewhere in the code (within text sentences as opposed to within
Tables), such as 310.60(C)(2)(b), 430.122(A), 630.31(A)(1), etc, utilize the
percentage wording. It is consistent with existing NEC usage.
2) add ?230.79? in front of ?service ampere rating?
Direct reference to the NEC source of the ?Service Rating? amperage value.
3) add ?as the minimum ampacity? before ?to determine?
To proactively state the mathematically obvious result of scientific units which
results from the multiplication of the service rating (amps) times 0.87 (87%),
and that it is a minimum number still subject to the other adjustments of
310.15(B).
Separate issue No. 2:
I believe that an Informational Note No. 3, showing a restructured form of
the 2011 NEC Table 310.15(B)(7), would be very helpful as a transition from
Table to adjustment factor.
The title and title heading would be unused. Only the portion of the existing
Table 310.15(B)(7) below the double line would be used, and one column
heading must be edited:
?Informational Note No. 3: Partial listing of conductor AWG or kcmil sizes
for 310.15(B)(7) applications, showing only 75?C (167?F) conductors, under
conditions of installation which do not require any other adjustments.?
The heading of the first column would need to have ?or Feeder? deleted since
the relationship is always to the ?Service Rating? even for feeders. It should
read ?Service Rating (Amperes)? - OR it should read ?230.79 Service Rating
(Amperes)? if the addition of ?230.79? within the body of the 310.15(B)(7) text
is approved.
The rest of the Table could be used as-is.
?AWG or kcmil? is used purposefully in the note to avoid the ambiguity of
the word ?size? as it relates to conductors. Does ?size? mean ?physical size? or
?ampacity??
I believe that in general the unqualified word ?size? should not be used
anywhere in the code in reference to conductors. ?AWG or kcmil size? or
?ampacity? would be unambiguous terms.
Separate issue No. 3:
I recommend another Informational Note:
?Informational Note No. 4: Section 310.15(B)(7) excludes 208Y/120-Volt
supplied systems (single or three phase) due to the additional heat from the
presence of a third conductor carrying current.?
I realize that the NEC is not a design manual, but this issue is so often
misunderstood that it seems worth the print space to help assure that AHJs have
proper and easy tools to use, and to help avoid repeated proposals and
comments.
KENT, G.: This proposal is correct as a Reject, however, I disagree that
permission exists in the code to allow this type of wiring.
LAIDLER, W.: I?m voting to accept the proposal. I would also recommend
that the editorial changes recommended by NFPA staff be incorporated into the
proposal (as stated below).
(7) 120/240-Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For service and
feeder conductors of 120/240-volt, single-phase, individual dwelling units of
one-family, two-family, and multifamily service ratings of 100 through 400
amperes, 83 percent of the 230.79 service ampere rating shall be permitted to
be used as the minimum ampacity to determine the size of the ungrounded
conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the
ungrounded conductors, provided that the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and
230.42 are met.
Informational Note No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other
correction or adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.
Informational Note No. 2: See example DXXX in Annex D.
These recommended changes will provide better clarity for the user on how
to apply this new language.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Lets start with this.<br />
<br />
[quote name="electricalist" post=1625956]Service Feeders[/QUOTE]<br />
<br />
There is no such thing as a 'service feeder' there are 'service conductors' and there are feeder conductors but they are never combined.<br />
<br />
I say that not to bust your chops but to help with the rest of your questions. It is important to use the terms the NEC uses when trying to learn NEC sections. <br />
<br />
Service conductors only exist between the utility connection and the service disconnect or disconnects.<br />
<br />
From article 100<br />
<br />
<b>Service Conductors.</b> The conductors from the service point<br />
to the service disconnecting means.
<br />
<br />
On the other hand feeders only exist between the service disconnects and the branch circuit breakers or fuses.<br />
<br />
<b>Feeder.</b> All circuit conductors between the service equipment,<br />
the source of a separately derived system, or other<br />
power supply source and theoveryl branch-circuit overcurrent<br /
 

Henley

Member
Location
Chesapeake Bay
I agree your statement is technically correct. The term is a "Bastardized" term that is used often in my part of the world.
I was trying to relay what K8MHZ put so eloquently - Only feeders that are between the main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies all loads that are associated with the dwelling unit are covered in the table. But it was a lot quicker to type Service Feeder.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
But it was a lot quicker to type Service Feeder.

But when on an NEC forum talking about NEC subjects using slang terms only leads to confusion.

At work I will say hot, neutral and ground but here I will say ungrounded, grounded and grounding conductors like a true code nerd. :)
 

Henley

Member
Location
Chesapeake Bay
But when on an NEC forum talking about NEC subjects using slang terms only leads to confusion.

At work I will say hot, neutral and ground but here I will say ungrounded, grounded and grounding conductors like a true code nerd. :)

Yes, I understand. You are absolutely correct !!:thumbsup:
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
The ampacity tables are real numbers based on physics. The load calculation numbers are made up numbers based on little. The dwelling unit conductor sizes are based on years of data from the utility companies as to the actual dwelling unit loads. Sure there could be some unusual conditions where the "over protected" conductors could be overheated a bit before the service OCPD tripped, but those cases would be rare.

sure, ok, i guess. why even give the possibility? just make wire size "no smaller than the main OCD of service panel". all that crazy verbiage alleviated in one simple statement.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
You caught me iwire.
And since the day you stated,,TO ME, what I quoted, I can see how trying to ask and get an answer sometimes isn't easy if the slang confuses the understanding.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
so wait, someone said up to the meter is "service" and would be poco, and then said poco doesnt go by NEC, so why then would the NEC address "service conductors" ??? i am not following the intent of the verbiage.
 
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