Another Mobile Home

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Esthy

Senior Member
Another mobile home in distress. See photos. Meter and 100 breaker disconnect is located less than 30' from the MH. The MH "disconnect" is now a junction box, no ground (only 3 conductors) and the inside panel has the neutral & ground tie together and are bonded only to the frame of the MH and no rods/electrodes.
Because the disconnect at the meter is less than 30', can I legally for a mobile home use the inside panel as a main and bond it to the 2 rods and leave, after cleaning the junction box as it is now? The photo shows the inside Federal Pacific (oh, oh) that I plan to clean and organize as the bus looks in good condition. Another low income situation. Sorry for many question, but been new in WA, new with NEC 2014, new with WAC and doing MH with very little money is no fun.
In another note: if a regular person read all topics posted in the forum (thousands) that person will be super qualify for a Master License!
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The mobile home panel is not a main panel as there needs to be 4 wires to it. I have not worked on a mobile homes in 30 years but I believe the panel in the home must be a main breaker panel with neutrals and grounds separated. I don't believe you need a ground rod at the trailer just at the meter.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Sorry, I was joking, I removed 2 mices carcasses and that is insulation that they brought to the panel trough all the openings in the back , notice in the last photo the back of the panel is facing the water heater area. After the work I am closing the area and installing a new electric water heater. Hope I have the answer about my original post to be sure if that will be a safe procedure.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Hi Dennis, I really never worked in MH as well, but here in WA, this organization provide home repairs for low income citizens and they care for more that a 1,000 MH. Few day ago I consulted with an Electrical Inspector for another MH and he confirmed that the MH should have the disconnect outside with the 2 rods and the neutral and ground separate at the panel, BUT because in this situation the disconnect "is now a junction box" and the panel (inside) has the four wires and neutral & ground are tied, I though that maybe I can leave in this way and do the cleaning, etc. The set of meters for 6 MHs are less that the "required" 30' from this MH. I would like to install the rods from the inside panel, but IF the meter area (difficult to see) has rods, would it be a problem installing the extra 2 rods?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
There is no problem installing the extra rods as long as the neutral and equipment grounding conductor are separated and the grounding electrode conductor from the rod is connected to the equipment grounding conductor.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
There is no problem installing the extra rods as long as the neutral and equipment grounding conductor are separated and the grounding electrode conductor from the rod is connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do I?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
There is no problem installing the extra rods as long as the neutral and equipment grounding conductor are separated and the grounding electrode conductor from the rod is connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do I?

Here in Michigan, the panel inside a MH cannot be a service panel, it must be a sub-panel fed with four wires from an outside service with an outside disconnect.

That is the difference between a 'mobile home' and a 'pre-fab home'. Being 'mobile' requires a disconnect separate from the dwelling.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Here in Michigan, the panel inside a MH cannot be a service panel, it must be a sub-panel fed with four wires from an outside service with an outside disconnect.

That is the difference between a 'mobile home' and a 'pre-fab home'. Being 'mobile' requires a disconnect separate from the dwelling.

That is not just Michigan but that is the NEC rule.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Hi Dennis, I really never worked in MH as well, but here in WA, this organization provide home repairs for low income citizens and they care for more that a 1,000 MH. Few day ago I consulted with an Electrical Inspector for another MH and he confirmed that the MH should have the disconnect outside with the 2 rods and the neutral and ground separate at the panel, BUT because in this situation the disconnect "is now a junction box" and the panel (inside) has the four wires and neutral & ground are tied, I though that maybe I can leave in this way and do the cleaning, etc. The set of meters for 6 MHs are less that the "required" 30' from this MH. I would like to install the rods from the inside panel, but IF the meter area (difficult to see) has rods, would it be a problem installing the extra 2 rods?

The meters can be more than 30 ft. from a mobile home

. You did not indicate that the service disconnect was located at the meters.

If there is no disconnect at the meters than the service conductors from the meter to the service disconnect with in the 30 ft. max distance from the mobile home would not be a feeder.

The neutral would bond at the required service disconnect.

At the distribution panel there is a main bonding conductor that bonds the metal structure of the mobile home to the equipment ground buss in the mobile home main distribution panel inside the mobile home. That conductor is not a grounding electrode conductor.
The grounding electrode conductor will be bonded at the outside required service equipment
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
There is no problem installing the extra rods as long as the neutral and equipment grounding conductor are separated and the grounding electrode conductor from the rod is connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do I?

550.32 Service Equipment.
(B) Manufactured Home Service Equipment.
(3) Means shall be provided for the connection of a grounding electrode conductor to the service equipment and routing it outside the structure.

There is no problem with the extra ground rods as long as the manufacture has provided a means for routing a grounding electrode conductor to the outside.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
550.32 Service Equipment.
(B) Manufactured Home Service Equipment.
(3) Means shall be provided for the connection of a grounding electrode conductor to the service equipment and routing it outside the structure.

There is no problem with the extra ground rods as long as the manufacture has provided a means for routing a grounding electrode conductor to the outside.

B is for manufactured homes not mobile homes. 550.32(A) requires the service equipment in sight from and not more than 30' from the ext. wall of the mobile home.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Agreed but you will never find manufactures instructions indicating you can bond a grounding electrode conductor to a mobile home main distribution panel. Manufacture instructions for mobile homes the required grounding electrode conductor to be bonded at the service equipment as you have indicated.

"There is no problem installing the extra rods as long as the neutral and equipment grounding conductor are separated and the grounding electrode conductor from the rod is connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do I?"

From the quotes above the OP seems to be talking about both the rules for manufacture homes and the rules for mobile homes as this part of the quotes above indicates,

"But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Agreed but you will never find manufactures instructions indicating you can bond a grounding electrode conductor to a mobile home main distribution panel. Manufacture instructions for mobile homes the required grounding electrode conductor to be bonded at the service equipment as you have indicated.

"There is no problem installing the extra rods as long as the neutral and equipment grounding conductor are separated and the grounding electrode conductor from the rod is connected to the equipment grounding conductor.

But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do I?"

From the quotes above the OP seems to be talking about both the rules for manufacture homes and the rules for mobile homes as this part of the quotes above indicates,

"But, if this is the main service panel, I have to keep the neutral and ground tie and not separated ... do

Maybe we need clarification from the OP where he believes the Main Service panel is allowed to be for Mobile Homes
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Thanks for all the input!!! Situation: a very old mobile home permanently installed at the site, old disconnect is been used now as a junction box as the photo shows, the meter has a breaker to disconnect the power and I ASSUME that the meter is grounded with a rod (difficult to see, I will try to take a photo today), so, is this is the case and I know the Mobile Home regulations, but because it is "permanent installed" I don't see the danger in using the inside panel as a service one, but I know you are more experienced on those MH and your advices are greatly appreciate.
If I cannot do in this way, then I will need to replace "this old junction box" for a new disconnect,with two rods and bring the feeder (4 conductors) to the inside panel and separate neutral and ground ... Correct?

BTW, I am writing in another post the other MH situation.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Mobile homes have killed unsuspecting plumbers, electricians, owners, etc. that have crawled under them and because of improper service/feeder/bonding/grounding issues they get electrocuted between the metal frame and the earth (which they have much more connectivity to when lying down then when standing on two feet.

There are reasons the rules are the way they are for mobile homes. I don't care to make changes to those rules - it can kill someone and then the low income issue seems not so big anymore.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
The last replay from kwired wake me up from my nightmare. The rules are the rules and I must follow them, so I will find the way to get the funds to do the right thing about those Mobile Homes following NEC rules and if the situation there is too dangerous then notify the appropriated authorities, it is a big true, cutting corners must be avoided as it will end in killing someone. thank!
 

DWEames

Member
Location
New Orleans, LA
You should make sure that "junction box" that used to be a disconnect is safe and up to code. I know it doesn't solve your code issue, but you should also consider the fact that when time comes to replace those breakers it's going to cost more than a new panel. but just separating the grounds and neutrals is a big improvement. you could get a new panel that is much easier to work, with separate ground and neutral busses. what's the ocpd at the meter for the wire coming into the building? I would want to make sure all that is nice and tight, and happy at the meter pan.
 
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