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Thread: Grounding electrode 250.64(D)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelec View Post
    Another thing I didn't mention here in NYC we still good of 2008 NEC I don't have my book handy wat does it say in the 2008 book about connections to buss bars. That may end this conversation dead in it's tracks lol
    First, thanks for giving us the photo to kick around. I well remember how I was trained with respect to GEC installation, and it was a real revelation when I came to understand what listed as "grounding and bonding equipment" meant. From then on, the electrical / mechanical integrity of the conductor identified as the GEC looked, to me, as an exceptionally secure conductive path that would require extreme abuse to interfere with and that the conductor was essentially immune to common connection failures, especially, corrosion, along the conductor outside of the service disconnect enclosure until one got to the connection to the actual electrode itself.

    Thanks for referring to the 2008 NEC. 250.64(D)(1) existed then, with all new/changed language. The Taps could only be spliced to the Common GEC with "exothermic welding or with connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment". The "busbar" is not in 250.64(D)(1) and 250.64(D)(1) has no subsections like the 2017 NEC version does.

    In the 2008 NEC, the "busbar" rule is in 250.64(F)

    So, under the 2008, I read that the "listed connector" is not allowed to connect GEC Taps to a Common GEC.
    Another Al in Minnesota

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelec View Post
    Wow I never thought I would stir up such a conversation with that install, and especially about a nut and bolt. Like I said before it's widely excepted here. In fact it's the preferred method. Are there any inspectors here that would fail this install. I have seen way worse methods of installing an EGC that's for sure. Maybe were onto something we should start making bus bars with lugs welded on from the factory then there could be no missinterpretation

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Much ado about nothing. In my view your install looks great and is fully compliant. And yes, this is a common and recommended method, especially in larger services/buildings.

  3. #53
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    I do know the Romex connectors are not listed for that purpose we put them in just for looks really. Inspectors here don't really pick up on it. I guess different places you have to know what the inspectors look for and Don't Look for to an extent .using those romex connectors isn't really a danger to anybody

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    First, thanks for giving us the photo to kick around. I well remember how I was trained with respect to GEC installation, and it was a real revelation when I came to understand what listed as "grounding and bonding equipment" meant. From then on, the electrical / mechanical integrity of the conductor identified as the GEC looked, to me, as an exceptionally secure conductive path that would require extreme abuse to interfere with and that the conductor was essentially immune to common connection failures, especially, corrosion, along the conductor outside of the service disconnect enclosure until one got to the connection to the actual electrode itself.

    Thanks for referring to the 2008 NEC. 250.64(D)(1) existed then, with all new/changed language. The Taps could only be spliced to the Common GEC with "exothermic welding or with connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment". The "busbar" is not in 250.64(D)(1) and 250.64(D)(1) has no subsections like the 2017 NEC version does.

    In the 2008 NEC, the "busbar" rule is in 250.64(F)

    So, under the 2008, I read that the "listed connector" is not allowed to connect GEC Taps to a Common GEC.
    Just to weigh in on the 2008 issue:

    (D) Service with Multiple Disconnecting Means Enclosures.
    Where a service consists of more than a single enclosure
    as permitted in 230.71(A), grounding electrode
    connections shall be made in accordance with (D)(1),
    (D)(2), or (D)(3).

    (1) Grounding Electrode Conductor Taps. Where the
    service is installed as permitted by 230.40, Exception No.
    2, a common grounding electrode conductor and grounding
    electrode conductor taps shall be installed. The common
    grounding electrode conductor shall be sized in accordance
    with 250.66, based on the sum of the circular mil area of
    the largest ungrounded service-entrance conductor(s).
    Where the service-entrance conductors connect directly to a
    service drop or service lateral, the common grounding electrode
    conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table
    250.66, Note 1. A tap conductor shall extend to the inside
    of each service disconnecting means enclosure. The
    grounding electrode conductor taps shall be sized in accordance
    with 250.66 for the largest conductor serving the
    individual enclosure. The tap conductors shall be connected to
    the common grounding electrode conductor by exothermic
    welding or with connectors listed as grounding and bonding
    equipment in such a manner that the common grounding electrode
    conductor remains without a splice or joint.
    Method posted by nickelec complies with that requirement because taps are connected in such manner [using...
    250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding
    Equipment.
    (A) Permitted Methods. Grounding conductors and bonding
    jumpers shall be connected by one of the following
    means:
    (1) Listed pressure connectors
    (2) Terminal bars
    (3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding
    equipment
    (4) Exothermic welding process
    (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than
    two threads or are secured with a nut
    (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less
    than two threads in the enclosure
    (7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
    (8) Other listed means
    ...] that the common grounding electrode conductor remains without a splice or joint.
    I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smart $ View Post
    Just to weigh in on the 2008 issue:



    Method posted by nickelec complies with that requirement because taps are connected in such manner [using...


    ...] that the common grounding electrode conductor remains without a splice or joint.
    ... ty smart there goes those two threads I mentioned earlier

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smart $ View Post
    Just to weigh in on the 2008 issue:
    Method posted by nickelec complies with that requirement because taps are connected in such manner [using...

    ...] that the common grounding electrode conductor remains without a splice or joint.
    I find it fascinating that you are glossing over the "listed as grounding and bonding equipment". Only some of each of the means listed in 250.8(A) (1) through (8) are listed as "grounding and bonding equipment."
    Another Al in Minnesota

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickelec View Post
    ... ty smart there goes those two threads I mentioned earlier
    A nut is acceptable, too!
    I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    I find it fascinating that you are glossing over the "listed as grounding and bonding equipment". Only some of each of the means listed in 250.8(A) (1) through (8) are listed as "grounding and bonding equipment."
    It is conventionally accepted that the listed means are 'permitted' to employ items enumerated in 250.8 to 'complete' the connection. Fight it all you want, but I know of no AHJ that is going to reject such as long as the assembly is both mechanically and electrically solid.
    I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

  9. #59
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    And, to my knowledge, 250.8(A)(5) aren't listed as anything at all.
    Another Al in Minnesota

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smart $ View Post
    It is conventionally accepted that the listed means are 'permitted' to employ items enumerated in 250.8 to 'complete' the connection. Fight it all you want, but I know of no AHJ that is going to reject such as long as the assembly is both mechanically and electrically solid.
    Your opinion of the AHJs that you know has no meaning when compared to the enforceable written text of the NEC.
    Another Al in Minnesota

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