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Thread: What's Upstream at the Port of Poulsbo

  1. #1
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    What's Upstream at the Port of Poulsbo

    Many of you may have seen the recent newsletter heaping deserved praise on those responsible for the fine work done to make this marina safer. https://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters...&letterID=1811

    As per the 2017 code, the pedestal breakers are GFCI protected at 30 mA.

    Does anyone know what type protection device feeds thes 30mA GFCI breakers? Is it a GFP breaker? If so, what trip limit? And how many pedestals connections (GFCI breakers) are fed by a single up-stream breaker?

    Finally, for the 120V connections, does this feeder (or main) device provide ground fault protection using a single-pole 120V breaker or from one leg of a 240V/120V double-pole device? For 240V and 240V/120V circuits I assume they are fed by double pole devices. But, if not, how are they fed?

    -Randal

  2. #2
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    Why are these important questions? The wording (if not the meaning) of the 2017 code for 555.3 is problematic - especially for those willing to spend the money to provide safe power, follow the code, and still have a usable marina.

    See the following from the Mike Holt Newsletter archives:

    http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters....&letterID=1772

    http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php...01-03-2017.pdf

    http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters....&letterID=1789

  3. #3
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    There is no such thing as a 30ma GFCI. A GFCI must trip between 4-6ma.
    Curt Swartz
    Electrical Contractor

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by curt swartz View Post
    There is no such thing as a 30ma GFCI. A GFCI must trip between 4-6ma.
    Not quite true. A GFCI for people protection must trip at 4-6 ma. These are called class A.

    GFCI for equipment protection is available with a 30ma trip. These are class B. You can find QO breakers with this feature in the square d catalog (QO-EPD).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    Not quite true. A GFCI for people protection must trip at 4-6 ma. These are called class A.

    GFCI for equipment protection is available with a 30ma trip. These are class B. You can find QO breakers with this feature in the square d catalog (QO-EPD).
    All GFCI's are Class A. If it is not Class A it is not a GFCI.
    Curt Swartz
    Electrical Contractor

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by curt swartz View Post
    There is no such thing as a 30ma GFCI. A GFCI must trip between 4-6ma.
    They do, in fact, make 30 mA GFI breakers. You may call it something else, but they exist. I believe that if it's 30 mA, it's it's called a "GFP". It's all semantics I guess.

    By the way, here in Washington, the 30 mA requirement has been delayed until 7-1-2018, so for now, the requirement for marina feeder protection is 100 mA or less. I don't know what was installed at the Port of Poulsbo job, but the current code would only require 100 mA.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    Not quite true. A GFCI for people protection must trip at 4-6 ma. These are called class A.

    GFCI for equipment protection is available with a 30ma trip. These are class B. You can find QO breakers with this feature in the square d catalog (QO-EPD).
    Class B is considered GFPE, ground-fault protection of equipment, and not GFCI.

    In fact, the EPD part of the model number for those Square D breakers stands for Equipment Protective Device.

    http://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads...iveDevices.pdf
    I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by curt swartz View Post
    All GFCI's are Class A. If it is not Class A it is not a GFCI.
    I wondered if that was your point, but you could have said "that's the wrong term" instead of saying "they don't exist".

    But GFCI = ground fault circuit interrupter. Seems perfectly fine to describe either a 5ma or 30 ma trip to me.

    That may not be the official term, but I believe myself and others will continue to call them that.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    I wondered if that was your point, but you could have said "that's the wrong term" instead of saying "they don't exist".

    But GFCI = ground fault circuit interrupter. Seems perfectly fine to describe either a 5ma or 30 ma trip to me.

    That may not be the official term, but I believe myself and others will continue to call them that.
    Yep! Couldn't agree more. They both INTERRUPT the circuit when the mA threshold is reached. It's just that one (GFCI) protects personnel, and the other (GFCP) protects equipment. I'm sure that the lawyers came up with the "P" term in the 30 mA version. Even though the intent of 555.3 is to prevent ESD, or at least TRY to prevent it.

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