Cottage Electrical Problem

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wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
I first contacted user "gar" about this and he suggested a post after I had some pictures and more info as things progressed.

My sister's cottage lost power during a recent wind storm. The local utility was there when my brother-in-law arrived working right behind the cottage where a fallen tree broke the T-bar on the pole bringing down a line.

You can refer to the link for pictures of the damage, etc. The service enters the unattached garage panel box first then on to another panel box in the cottage.

All GFCI receptacles were either burnt/blown or didn't function afterwards. There were two that weren't burnt up, something into it, didn?t function afterwards but the device plugged into them was undamaged. There was one in the garage and one in the cottage like that. Some breakers appeared undamaged as some receptacles as well but all were replaced regardless.

You may notice that the new panel box is installed upside down and that's because of a damaged wire that had to be cut back.

The transformer in the furnace and the thermostat had to be replaced. Their nextdoor neighbor caught the HVAC guy as he was leaving as their furnace was dead, transformer and circuit board at least. The neighbor had one burnt receptacle which took out a two year old flat screen TV and stereo system. Lost their microwave also. They were using the same local electrical contractor when my brother-in-law left for home. Going back next week as the contractor is coming back for a ceiling fan that damaged.

My sister is filing an insurance claim but who knows where that will go.

So what do you guys think happened here? See this before? Any comments or questions are welcome. Dropbox wouldn?t allow a public link to a folder so I had to do it by single files so I had to list all 19 of them. Sorry, pictures are large this way so it takes lots of scrolling!:(

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG A.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG B.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG C.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG D.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG E.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG F.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG G.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG H.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG I.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG J.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG K.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG L.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG M.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG NJPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG O.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG P.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG Q.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG R.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG S.JPG
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
What was the circuits that took bulk the hit on the panel?

I'll assume that these where the circuits that had the bulk of GFCI's in the building.

The surge of electricity went to where the GFCI were because that's where a trickle of power that was being used.

It wasn't the GFCI that let the power burn up the components it was the high power that burned it up and ran straight through the GFCI. A GFCI is wired NC when working.

In other words anything that had active power in use at the time of hit took the bulk of whatever was coming down line after the pole dropped.

The real problem is the panel in the closet, everyone knows that closet panel power causes spontaneous combustion! :roll:
 

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
What was the circuits that took bulk the hit on the panel?

I'll assume that these where the circuits that had the bulk of GFCI's in the building.

The surge of electricity went to where the GFCI were because that's where a trickle of power that was being used.

It wasn't the GFCI that let the power burn up the components it was the high power that burned it up and ran straight through the GFCI. A GFCI is wired NC when working.

In other words anything that had active power in use at the time of hit took the bulk of whatever was coming down line after the pole dropped.

The real problem is the panel in the closet, everyone knows that closet panel power causes spontaneous combustion! :roll:
I asked him to try to figure which one had the most damage. He said it look like the furnace or one that had no wires, not in use.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I first contacted user "gar" about this and he suggested a post after I had some pictures and more info as things progressed.

My sister's cottage lost power during a recent wind storm. The local utility was there when my brother-in-law arrived working right behind the cottage where a fallen tree broke the T-bar on the pole bringing down a line.

You can refer to the link for pictures of the damage, etc. The service enters the unattached garage panel box first then on to another panel box in the cottage.

All GFCI receptacles were either burnt/blown or didn't function afterwards. There were two that weren't burnt up, something into it, didn?t function afterwards but the device plugged into them was undamaged. There was one in the garage and one in the cottage like that. Some breakers appeared undamaged as some receptacles as well but all were replaced regardless.

You may notice that the new panel box is installed upside down and that's because of a damaged wire that had to be cut back.

The transformer in the furnace and the thermostat had to be replaced. Their nextdoor neighbor caught the HVAC guy as he was leaving as their furnace was dead, transformer and circuit board at least. The neighbor had one burnt receptacle which took out a two year old flat screen TV and stereo system. Lost their microwave also. They were using the same local electrical contractor when my brother-in-law left for home. Going back next week as the contractor is coming back for a ceiling fan that damaged.

My sister is filing an insurance claim but who knows where that will go.

So what do you guys think happened here? See this before? Any comments or questions are welcome. Dropbox wouldn?t allow a public link to a folder so I had to do it by single files so I had to list all 19 of them. Sorry, pictures are large this way so it takes lots of scrolling!:(

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG A.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG B.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG C.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG D.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG E.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG F.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG G.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG H.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG I.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG J.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG K.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG L.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG M.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG NJPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG O.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG P.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG Q.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG R.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21386595/Cottage/IMG S.JPG

GFCI's have electronics that are in the circuit all the time - or at very least when the unit is in 'reset' condition. You had a high voltage surge hit them and they could not take that voltage, as well as many other items it appears.

What happened? - I think you described it - some component on the pole failed and a high voltage distribution line fell and energized the low voltage system supplying the house with higher voltage distribution voltage - likely at least 2400 volts to ground, 7200 volts to ground being most likely and in some instances even more then that.

New panel box is not upside down - there is no top or bottom meaning it can go either way.

I do question whether AHJ would allow it to be installed in the closet - even if it was replacing one that was somehow 'grandfathered' and allowed to be there. They wouldn't allow a replacement panel to go back in that spot here as well as many other places.
 

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
GFCI's have electronics that are in the circuit all the time - or at very least when the unit is in 'reset' condition. You had a high voltage surge hit them and they could not take that voltage, as well as many other items it appears.

What happened? - I think you described it - some component on the pole failed and a high voltage distribution line fell and energized the low voltage system supplying the house with higher voltage distribution voltage - likely at least 2400 volts to ground, 7200 volts to ground being most likely and in some instances even more then that.

New panel box is not upside down - there is no top or bottom meaning it can go either way.

I do question whether AHJ would allow it to be installed in the closet - even if it was replacing one that was somehow 'grandfathered' and allowed to be there. They wouldn't allow a replacement panel to go back in that spot here as well as many other places.
That's what "gar" thought, the primary contacted the secondary line(s).

Don't you normally install with the main breaker at the top on the panel? In Canada from what I've seen, they are installed sideways. The old panel had an install date of 1987 and that's out in the boonies on top of that and their next door neighbor was the builder of both.
 
Last edited:

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Don't you normally install with the main breaker at the top on the panel? In Canada from what I've seen, they are installed sideways. The old panel had an install date of 1987 and that's out in the boonies on top of that and their next door neighbor was the builder of both.
That used to be the only way to do it with most "load centers" anyway, but that was mostly because of the design of the main breaker. Up position needed (and still needs to be) on position. Most of them have main breakers that have a horizontal operating handle anymore and because of this have no true "top" or "bottom". Other then NEMA 3R loadcenters that usually don't give you a choice, most of the ones I install seem to usually have the main at the bottom - why put it on top if your supply conductors are coming from below?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
141130-1246 EST

I did not open any of the above pictures at this time.

One of the pictures Bill sent me earlier showed a duplex cover with smoke or burn marks. This is at one end which is consistent with the location of a GFCI MOV. I believe the GFCIs failed by the MOV burning up or exploding, and possible arcing afterwords.

I believe primary side voltage got into the secondary side. There was a lot of current and arcing for a substantial time. That the main panel bus bar stubs were melted indicates arcing at that point. At this time none of the failed components can be opened for inspection. To sustain an arc at the connection of the breaker to the bus bar means that a sustained current had to flow thru the breaker. Did the breaker contacts fuse, or was there an arc sustained across the breaker contacts?

I would believe all wiring in the buildings may need replacement, or at least evaluation.

.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
141130-1246 EST

I did not open any of the above pictures at this time.

One of the pictures Bill sent me earlier showed a duplex cover with smoke or burn marks. This is at one end which is consistent with the location of a GFCI MOV. I believe the GFCIs failed by the MOV burning up or exploding, and possible arcing afterwords.

I believe primary side voltage got into the secondary side. There was a lot of current and arcing for a substantial time. That the main panel bus bar stubs were melted indicates arcing at that point. At this time none of the failed components can be opened for inspection. To sustain an arc at the connection of the breaker to the bus bar means that a sustained current had to flow thru the breaker. Did the breaker contacts fuse, or was there an arc sustained across the breaker contacts?

I would believe all wiring in the buildings may need replacement, or at least evaluation.

.
I agree, this in many ways is very similar to having a lightning strike either directly or very close, you just don't really know what may have been damaged that is not easily seen. All the photos show the obvious damage, what about insulation integrity in concealed locations? What other fixtures, appliances, other items suffered only minor damage allowing them to still function but will ultimately fail sometime later? And this incident will kind of be forgotten about when those items fail though this incident maybe was the starting point of an accelerated decline in performance..
 

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
The refrigerator, a trickle charger, microwave and a temperature/power monitor which connects to a phone line seem to still work. The electrical contractor did use some sort-of device on the wiring I was told but I doubt if it was a megger. I told them that I can do this but all the GFCI's must be disconnected for this. Who knows about the insurance company as they may say that wiring should be tested if not replaced?? Anyone know/hear about other insurance cases have turned out when the cause was the primary comes in contact with the secondary?

There probably other cottage owners that have damage but don't know it yet.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Other cottages with likely severe damage would be those wired to the same transformer secondary.
More distant damage based just on the spiking on the primary will be both less likely and less severe.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Other cottages with likely severe damage would be those wired to the same transformer secondary.
More distant damage based just on the spiking on the primary will be both less likely and less severe.

Since he was interested in knowing about other similar cases - though not the same thing he had - I have seen widespread damage in a town when a 34KV transmission line fell onto a 2.4/4.16KV local distribution line. It wasn't that everyone in town had damage but appeared that if you were on the phase that got crossed with the higher voltage - your risk of damage went up. That incident only lasted for just an instant, but sent a spike through the whole town's distribution system. Lots of electronic components in homes and businesses took a hit, had one house where nearly every GFCI outlet would not function. The transmission line falling was an "Act of God" so the utility company was not liable - if your homeowners insurance didn't cover any related damages you were paying for them yourself.

The line falling was an "Act of God" because there was no negligence by POCO, their line fell because of issues associated with a flooding river at the time.
 

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
I asked for and received all the devices removed after the insurance claim was settled.

I finally got around to taking one of the worst ones apart. I've added a picture of what a breaker should look like inside for comparison.

Breaker.jpg Good Breaker.jpg
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
150331-1345 EDT

wptsk:

Now that I see a moderately intact breaker for comparison my guess is:

1. Over-current occurred and tripped the breaker.
2. There was enough source voltage and current to maintain an arc across the breaker contacts when open.
3. A great amount of heat was generated in the breaker contact area. Sufficient current was present along with a long arc length to produce the heat in the contact area to destroy most of what was there. The current was not high enough to exceed the fusing current of the output wiring.
4. The current was not sufficient to greatly damage the output terminal area, or a portion of the thermal unit.
5. The arc lasted for a moderate duration.

.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
150401-1431 EDT

Assume the failed breaker circuit wire was #12, then the fusing current for copper is about 235 A. Also the cathode all of potential is about 25 V. This would be a power dissipation of at least about 235*25 = 5800 W in a very small space.

,
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I asked for and received all the devices removed after the insurance claim was settled.

I finally got around to taking one of the worst ones apart. I've added a picture of what a breaker should look like inside for comparison.

View attachment 12257 View attachment 12256
Great job on the cut-away of the damaged breaker. Thanks for the photo!
 
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