No box behind light

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DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
How often do you find lights that do not have a box behind them. Just a bracket fastened to the wall and the splices are hidden by the light canopy?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
How often do you find lights that do not have a box behind them. Just a bracket fastened to the wall and the splices are hidden by the light canopy?

Way too often. I am not referring to those light bars where they have just a ko.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
For exterior wall lights maybe 75% of the time at least on older construction.

Knob and tube supplied fixtures in any location is probably over 95% of the time.
 

DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
My boss did it on a lot of exterior lights and vanity lights. Drove me nuts trying to fit everything behind a light with no box to splice in... And we were using 12-2 with red wire nuts.

Then we started subbing the electrical on the last couple of jobs and I noticed those guys used no boxes got exterior lights... Wall mounted, flood lights... And I'm sure the vanity lights are the same.

They ran emt in the basement. No boxes grounded, no switches grounded. :slaphead:

I didn't know if this was small town "that's how I was taught, it'll be alright" or if a lot of this goes on all over the country.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
My boss did it on a lot of exterior lights and vanity lights. Drove me nuts trying to fit everything behind a light with no box to splice in... And we were using 12-2 with red wire nuts.

Then we started subbing the electrical on the last couple of jobs and I noticed those guys used no boxes got exterior lights... Wall mounted, flood lights... And I'm sure the vanity lights are the same.

They ran emt in the basement. No boxes grounded, no switches grounded. :slaphead:

I didn't know if this was small town "that's how I was taught, it'll be alright" or if a lot of this goes on all over the country.
If they used industrial raised covers that qualify as a bonding method then the devices are ok . if the emt started at the panel that was grounded then it's ok. Check the plug ground to a ground you are sure of and see if it is.
 

DBoone

Senior Member
Location
Mississippi
Occupation
General Contractor
The covers are raised. The emt is just on the walls. So for instance, NM cable leaves the panel up thru emt, emt stops at the top of the block wall, nm continues thru ceiling and then down thru emt to a box.

Individual conductors pulled from box to box along the wall.

So no grounding from the panel. The receptacles are grounded, would that ground the rest of the emt? It would all be electrically connected but was sure about the legality and if it would guarantee low impedance thru all of the connections.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
It sounds like its not bonded correctly. The emt leaving the panel is if it's connected with a listed connector but when the nm enters the emt. A. How many nm cables? B. It may need a connector. C. The ground needs to be bonded to the box it enters.
I think if the ground from the nm first lands on the plug I don't think that's the intent of the cover as a means of bonding. Removing the cover would lift all the grounds .
 
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readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
How often do you find lights that do not have a box behind them. Just a bracket fastened to the wall and the splices are hidden by the light canopy?

On exterior wall-mounted, often enough that I am always surprised when I do__________________________ find a box.

On added paddle fans, pretty often.

Soffit mounted floods--almost always.

I've told local inspectors to look at screws, if they're bugle head there is probably no box. Did not seem to change anything.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
I'm working on a project where I'm adding 10 lights on block walls on the outside of the bldg. If the fixture wire is long enough to reach through the wall is it acceptable to sleeve it with 3/8 flex and put the j box on the other side?
 

tkb

Senior Member
Location
MA
I see a restaurant being built out in my town and they drilled holes in the brick and stuck out mc cables for the outside wall fixtures.
I will bet there won't be boxes behind these fixtures.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
I wonder if it's something inspectors have decided to not worry about. Its almost always single wired and you have to lay the wires where they won't get pinched plus the light will stay better anchored to the wall than to a box that's if they're lucky anchored good.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
I see a restaurant being built out in my town and they drilled holes in the brick and stuck out mc cables for the outside wall fixtures.
I will bet there won't be boxes behind these fixtures.

Shoe box fixtures that I have installed had a 1/2" KO in the metal mounting plate. Then all of your connections were enclosed by the metal back plate & the fixture. Similar idea as found in bath vanity strip lights
 
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Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I see a restaurant being built out in my town and they drilled holes in the brick and stuck out mc cables for the outside wall fixtures.
I will bet there won't be boxes behind these fixtures.

Sounds to me like a perfect instance for some sort of flat pancake box for use with fixtures with canopy,,,inventors!
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
The covers are raised. The emt is just on the walls. So for instance, NM cable leaves the panel up thru emt, emt stops at the top of the block wall, nm continues thru ceiling and then down thru emt to a box.

Individual conductors pulled from box to box along the wall.

So no grounding from the panel. The receptacles are grounded, would that ground the rest of the emt? It would all be electrically connected but was sure about the legality and if it would guarantee low impedance thru all of the connections.
Without a picture I can't say that what you have described is a bad install. And when you say "no grounding from the panel" but then go on to say "It would all be electrically connected" I don't know what to believe.

250.86 allows short sections of EMT used for protection of NM to not be connected to an EGC.

In other cases if EMT is a complete system or is connected to a proper EGC it is the EGC and is better than any wire you could stuff in it. I know I only pull a green in EMT if someone makes me or job specs call for it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The covers are raised. The emt is just on the walls. So for instance, NM cable leaves the panel up thru emt, emt stops at the top of the block wall, nm continues thru ceiling and then down thru emt to a box.

Individual conductors pulled from box to box along the wall.

So no grounding from the panel. The receptacles are grounded, would that ground the rest of the emt? It would all be electrically connected but was sure about the legality and if it would guarantee low impedance thru all of the connections.

As described you have a sleeve for physical protection for the NM cable from the panel to ceiling and from ceiling to first outlet box. The panel sleeve is bonded with it's fitting and locknut to the panel. The EGC in the NM cable needs to land on the EGC bus in the panel as well as bond to the first outlet box. That will then allow for bonding the rest of the raceway and other boxes if proper fittings are used.
 
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