Question on nomenclature

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Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
I have been asked recently to help hook up a Riello burner and I'm confused on the electrical print. From the little research I've done it appears that this is a Canadian product. The electrical supply stated on print is 230Vac - 50hz. I'm okay with this and understand 50 -60hz thing but also on the print it shows these wires connected to L1 and N. Is this just there way of showing the other hot? In order for 230vac I need two hots and no neutrals. Any help would be appreciated I'm currently searching for info.
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
It may be a European model.
230V 50Hz line to neutral is common there while 120-0-120 is not found at all.
The instructions not to swap phase and neutral could indicate either that the insulation on one side cannot withstand 230V, or more likely that the internal switch or relay does not interrupt the N connection.
The latter could mean that connecting it to 120/240 is not allowed.
Does the equipment have either a UL or CSA listing? If not, it was not made for the North American market.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
It may be a European model.
230V 50Hz line to neutral is common there while 120-0-120 is not found at all.
The instructions not to swap phase and neutral could indicate either that the insulation on one side cannot withstand 230V, or more likely that the internal switch or relay does not interrupt the N connection.
The latter could mean that connecting it to 120/240 is not allowed.
Does the equipment have either a UL or CSA listing? If not, it was not made for the North American market.

Currently looking for that but in the meantime it's a model FS20 Riello Forced draught gas burner.
 

Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician Semi-retired
We have some equipment that is 240 V, but it is only (internally) fused on one leg. In a case like that, if it were L1 to N, you definitely wouldn't want N fused and L1 not.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
We have some equipment that is 240 V, but it is only (internally) fused on one leg. In a case like that, if it were L1 to N, you definitely wouldn't want N fused and L1 not.

Yes it calls for a 6amp fuse in line with L1 which is present but I'm having a hard time understanding this hook up and if it is even made for our voltage standards.
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Yes it calls for a 6amp fuse in line with L1 which is present but I'm having a hard time understanding this hook up and if it is even made for our voltage standards.
It is not made for your voltage standards. To use it as intended you would need to use a 1:1 isolation transformer to get 240V to N on the secondary with 120-0-120 on the primary. Otherwise you would have to rewire it to fuse both L1 and L2 somehow.

Your inspector (if any) may not allow it regardless because it is not UL listed.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
It may be a European model.
230V 50Hz line to neutral is common there while 120-0-120 is not found at all.
The instructions not to swap phase and neutral could indicate either that the insulation on one side cannot withstand 230V, or more likely that the internal switch or relay does not interrupt the N connection.
The latter could mean that connecting it to 120/240 is not allowed.
Does the equipment have either a UL or CSA listing? If not, it was not made for the North American market.

It is European. Don't have unit in front of me just looking through 2 page manual they gave me and found it's approved EN 676 European Standard

Definitely NOT made for use in North America, and not UL or CSA listed. GoldDigger is right, that warning should be a red flag that the unit is somehow internally bonded or grounded on what THEY would consider the neutral, which would mean you cannot hook it up here in North America unless you go buy a special transformer to create that type of separate system just for it. Their power system is 400Y230V 3 phase 4 wire pretty much everywhere, even in residential services. So for single phase equipment, they use one phase and neutral, which gives them 230V. That might be OK for using here, UNLESS they bond the neutral inside of the equipment itself, which they sometimes do for special circumstances. When they do, they include some sort of warning, just like what you read. In addition, that has a blower, which, if running at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, will likely increase the load on the motor to 172% of normal and trip it out on OL, or burn it up. People think they are being smart by buying crap from overseas over the internet without checking to see if it will work here. Happens a lot more often now.

Before hooking that up, I would get something in writing from your customer saying they acknowledge that you are not going to accept any responsibility for damage to the equipment or any liability for anything arising from you installing unlisted equipment.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
It is not made for your voltage standards. To use it as intended you would need to use a 1:1 isolation transformer to get 240V to N on the secondary with 120-0-120 on the primary. Otherwise you would have to rewire it to fuse both L1 and L2 somehow.

Your inspector (if any) may not allow it regardless because it is not UL listed.

Thank you. I really wish they would have consulted me before purchase. Re-wiring it to fuse both would be easily accomplished but I just don't feel comfortable with this install. Of course trying to get in touch with someone from Riello proves interesting.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Definitely NOT made for use in North America, and not UL or CSA listed. GoldDigger is right, that warning should be a red flag that the unit is somehow internally bonded or grounded on what THEY would consider the neutral, which would mean you cannot hook it up here in North America unless you go buy a special transformer to create that type of separate system just for it. Their power system is 400Y230V 3 phase 4 wire pretty much everywhere, even in residential services. So for single phase equipment, they use one phase and neutral, which gives them 230V. That might be OK for using here, UNLESS they bond the neutral inside of the equipment itself, which they sometimes do for special circumstances. When they do, they include some sort of warning, just like what you read. In addition, that has a blower, which, if running at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, will likely increase the load on the motor to 172% of normal and trip it out on OL, or burn it up. People think they are being smart by buying crap from overseas over the internet without checking to see if it will work here. Happens a lot more often now.

Before hooking that up, I would get something in writing from your customer saying they acknowledge that you are not going to accept any responsibility for damage to the equipment or any liability for anything arising from you installing unlisted equipment.

I just located info on the control box and it is a Siemens C-series rated at 220-240Vac. This to me looks ok but the rest doesn't
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Definitely NOT made for use in North America, and not UL or CSA listed. GoldDigger is right, that warning should be a red flag that the unit is somehow internally bonded or grounded on what THEY would consider the neutral, which would mean you cannot hook it up here in North America unless you go buy a special transformer to create that type of separate system just for it. Their power system is 400Y230V 3 phase 4 wire pretty much everywhere, even in residential services. So for single phase equipment, they use one phase and neutral, which gives them 230V. That might be OK for using here, UNLESS they bond the neutral inside of the equipment itself, which they sometimes do for special circumstances. When they do, they include some sort of warning, just like what you read. In addition, that has a blower, which, if running at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, will likely increase the load on the motor to 172% of normal and trip it out on OL, or burn it up. People think they are being smart by buying crap from overseas over the internet without checking to see if it will work here. Happens a lot more often now.

Before hooking that up, I would get something in writing from your customer saying they acknowledge that you are not going to accept any responsibility for damage to the equipment or any liability for anything arising from you installing unlisted equipment.

Thank You. Just found a attention note: Says: In case of phase to phase feed a bridge must be fitted on the control board between terminal 6 and the earth terminal. What are they saying "Bridge". Could I test continuity with my meter to see if there is a bond between what they are calling the neutral and earth?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Thank You. Just found a attention note: Says: In case of phase to phase feed a bridge must be fitted on the control board between terminal 6 and the earth terminal. What are they saying "Bridge". Could I test continuity with my meter to see if there is a bond between what they are calling the neutral and earth?


The Bridge is what we would call a jumper wire or jumper block, depending on how it attaches.
Is is possible that the 6 to earth jumper is just to make sure that the control circuit does not drift too far from earth ground potential. The fact that they do not ask you to remove a bridge suggests that they do not start out with a neutral to ground bond. (If they did, it would violate NEC and would trip any GFCI in the circuit.
You can check for an neutral to ground (EGC) bond with a meter, but if you get no connection it still cannot tell you what the voltage withstand is.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Ok. I found contact info for Canada technical service and I have a call into them. Waiting on a response. Will let you know how I make out. Thx for all the help and info!
 

Tony S

Senior Member
Good luck with the call, I don’t think you will be happy with the outcome.

The wiring method you describe is common in Europe. 433V 3Pn+N or 250V 1Ph+N, the 3 line inputs linked.

Please do not use it on 120-N-120V any control is likely to be wired to the neutral terminal which will become live at 120V.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Just wanted to give an update. Called Riello tech support today and I must say they were very excellent to deal with. I was put right through to someone never put on hold. Turns out just like you all have said the wrong burner was sent to customer from China. Now it's up to the customer to convince China to exchange the unit with one made for here. Hats off to the people at Riello I'm not used to being able to actually call tech support and deal with someone who is knowledgeable and helpful.
 
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