AFCI Breakers

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mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
5. When UL did testing, they determined that all over driven staple faults in testing involved the EGC and thus a condition capable of tripping an RCD. RCD (30/50ma GFP) does all the work and does not nuisance trip.

You lose me when you say things that are as untrue as the manufacturers say about their products.

From what I have read from a French electrician they do in fact nuisance trip.
 

mbrooke

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Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
You lose me when you say things that are as untrue as the manufacturers say about their products.

From what I have read from a French electrician they do in fact nuisance trip.


Not what I have heard from UK sparkies on UK forums. Crack open a European RCD and its just a toroid coil with a solenoid. In terms of functionality an RCD is exactly like a GFCI, and if a GFCI is tripping than it is sensing a ground fault.
 

GoldDigger

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Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
Not what I have heard from UK sparkies on UK forums. Crack open a European RCD and its just a toroid coil with a solenoid. In terms of functionality an RCD is exactly like a GFCI, and if a GFCI is tripping than it is sensing a ground fault.
And that would be a "nuisance trip" only if you were willing to tolerate a ground fault in the first place.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
mbrooke-Your rant is ...well Your rant. From what source did you glean this information ? Your profile states Electrician/Electrical Engineer, So where is your dog in this discussion ? What do you have to gain by defeat of Arc Fault technology ?


From Arc Fault's longtime proponent ,Dr. Joe Engel , as well as the National Bureau of Standards

Past ROP's follow suit, a lot of effort has been aimed at CMP-2 for clarification.

The gain being some simply abhor 'shirt pocket rules'



~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
You lose me when you say things that are as untrue as the manufacturers say about their products.

From what I have read from a French electrician they do in fact nuisance trip.


So what would you rather have creating nusiance trips then?

A simple time tested toroidal coil ?

Or 30-40 microprocessors the size of a pea , installed across the mains and subjected to power quality issues ?

Further, exactly what does an afci test button test? Does it not reset if said microprocessor looses it's ability to 'memorize arc's' (a manufacturer claim) Does it lock itself out when compromised, such as all the gfci ado? Can any of these claims be validated in the field?



~RJ~
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
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Technician
You lose me when you say things that are as untrue as the manufacturers say about their products.

From what I have read from a French electrician they do in fact nuisance trip.

Ok, with the help of Google came across this in a Euro Forum:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...02813-rcds-nuisance-tripping.html#post1107705


Even if (for the sake of the argument) European RCDs trip on conditions other than current imbalance (Euro sparks claim they don't), our US GFCIs/GFPs certainly do not.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thank you. What kills me the most is the the impression it leaves the customer.
Same here, makes us look like we don't know what we are doing - all they want is reliable power and they don't understand the possible problems that the device may be trying to prevent from happening.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
:lol:



pinocchio.jpg
Well..in your little FORUM world probably not....in the real world....Many Do !...and very mature...lol...;)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Well..in your little FORUM world probably not....in the real world....Many Do !...and very mature...lol...;)
The real world also has many AFCIs and GFCI's being removed from service because someone did not like losing power - whether the device was finding a legitimate problem or not, they also are sometimes increasing overcurrent device settings for similar reasons - though you will find less "professionals" doing that compared to those removing an AFCI because they can't seem to find out why it keeps tripping.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Well..in your little FORUM world probably not....in the real world....Many Do !...and very mature...lol...;)

Strange, you are one of the very few that claims anyone but manufacturers like AFCIs.

Well I guess that is cool, the other 99.99% of those in the trade that do not like AFCIs can mail you all the AFCIs that they remove. :D
 

gaelectric

Senior Member
My house was built in 2000. Not one AFCI in the panel controlling any circuit. Standard breakers with GFCI protection where required.

I sleep like a baby.

In my opinion AFCI is a hoax put onto the residential electrical trade as a way for the manufacturers and suppliers to rake in the cash.
 
Strange, you are one of the very few that claims anyone but manufacturers like AFCIs.

Well I guess that is cool, the other 99.99% of those in the trade that do not like AFCIs can mail you all the AFCIs that they remove. :D

Unfortunately, I have seen this done after inspection. I would wonder about liability if a lawyer got a hold of it.

But the reality, as stated in comments above and so many times before it has become ad nauseam, is that AFCI's don't do what they're supposed to do, and the manufacturers don't care because they're now selling a product that costs at least 5 times as much as the old product.

It's the residential EC's that have taken the burden of these useless breakers.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
You lose me when you say things that are as untrue as the manufacturers say about their products.

From what I have read from a French electrician they do in fact nuisance trip.

First off, where did you read that?

Like any sensitive equipment a RCD may trip on current imbalance, it isn?t a regular occurrence. Items with SMPS have an inherent leakage, too many on a circuit and they will trip just as a GFCI will.


Not what I have heard from UK sparkies on UK forums. Crack open a European RCD and its just a toroid coil with a solenoid. In terms of functionality an RCD is exactly like a GFCI, and if a GFCI is tripping than it is sensing a ground fault.

When RCD?s came out they were a bit temperamental, that?s 40+ years ago.
As you know from the other side, there?s usually an underlying fault causing the trip. Spurious tripping is very rare, electricians trying to find a get out is more common.

Now we use current ramp testing the actual time/current curve is recorded in situe for every RCD unit installed.


The RCD and RCBO?s in my flat were tested just before I moved in. A month ago I had an independent test carried out, the results were within 2% of the previous results.

The tests were carried out by someone you know Mr Brooke's ;-) He?s a stickler for the regulations.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Good to know those RCDs are functioning :D


Before RCDs didn't they have voltage operated earth leakage detectors for TT networks?



Personally the NEC should have just moved GFCIs to the branch circuit origin and left it at that. Same protection no headaches. But the way I see it being marketing. By creating AFCIs and claiming them as something separate from GFCI you end up with 2 different price points, and when you add self testing GFCIs (because of the electronics) you have 3 times more per circuit profit. Big bummer is the US doesn't use sub-main GFCIs, so you get the picture. :happysad:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
First off, where did you read that?

An electrcian that lives and works in both Paris and Wisconsin. But I will conceded that is pretty thin.

Like any sensitive equipment a RCD may trip on current imbalance, it isn?t a regular occurrence. Items with SMPS have an inherent leakage, too many on a circuit and they will trip just as a GFCI will.

But you just confirmed it.

My understanding is the RCDs are used in the main supply so that a trip takes out all the power not just a branch circuit. I find that unexceptable as I think most customers would.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Good to know those RCDs are functioning :D


Before RCDs didn't they have voltage operated earth leakage detectors for TT networks?

So you do not have first hand experiance with these units you are pushing?

Seems odd.

Personally the NEC should have just moved GFCIs to the branch circuit origin and left it at that. Same protection no headaches.

I agree.

Big bummer is the US doesn't use sub-main GFCIs, so you get the picture. :happysad:

They are not prohibited by any code, only prohibited by intelligent design. A single ground fault in a branch circuit should not dump an entire panel. That would be 'big bummer'.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
you don't say......

you don't say......

They are not prohibited by any code, only prohibited by intelligent design. A single ground fault in a branch circuit should not dump an entire panel. That would be 'big bummer'.


Do you own a code book Mr Iwre? :)

230.95 Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment.
Ground-
fault protection of equipment shall be provided for solidly
grounded wye electric services of more than 150 volts to
ground but not exceeding 1000 volts phase-to-phase for
each service disconnect rated 1000 amperes or more. The
grounded conductor for the solidly grounded wye system
shall be connected directly to ground through a grounding
electrode system, as specified in 250.50, without inserting
any resistor or impedance device.
The rating of the service disconnect shall be considered
to be the rating of the largest fuse that can be installed or
the highest continuous current trip setting for which the
actual overcurrent device installed in a circuit breaker is
rated or can be adjusted.

~RJ~
 
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