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binney

Inactive, Email Never Verified
I recently took a position as a maintenance electrician for an industrial company. I have a strong background in the construction aspect of electrical, but I'm finding I lack some of the troubleshooting skills needed in an industrial plant. Is there any online classes of websites that anyone would recommend. I considered taking some classes at the local tech school, but there schedule was too demanding to meet my work needs, and help would be appreciated.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Most of the troubleshooting techniques come from theory knowledge, experience and asking questions.

Some tech schools do have troubleshooting classes.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I recently took a position as a maintenance electrician for an industrial company. I have a strong background in the construction aspect of electrical, but I'm finding I lack some of the troubleshooting skills needed in an industrial plant. Is there any online classes of websites that anyone would recommend. I considered taking some classes at the local tech school, but there schedule was too demanding to meet my work needs, and help would be appreciated.
Ask questions here whenever you want. It's a great resource.

As far as techniques, ninety percent of the time the solution to the problem is mundane.......bad connection, worn part, simple stuff. Finding it is often a pain. Getting in there and doing it gives you a resivior to draw from.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Take a look at books from American Technical Publishers. They will have several that will be usefull.
You'll want to know about meggers, infrared scanners, DVMs, ampmeters for starters.
Keep good records, what you did and when, manuals and drawings.
Construction and maintenance electrical are very different
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
I recently took a position as a maintenance electrician for an industrial company. I have a strong background in the construction aspect of electrical, but I'm finding I lack some of the troubleshooting skills needed in an industrial plant. Is there any online classes of websites that anyone would recommend. I considered taking some classes at the local tech school, but there schedule was too demanding to meet my work needs, and help would be appreciated.
Working with/under your foreman (if there is one :)) would enable you to acquire the practical troubleshooting skills needed in an industrial plant and also the ability to work independently in the long run.
 
Working with/under your foreman (if there is one :)) would enable you to acquire the practical troubleshooting skills needed in an industrial plant and also the ability to work independently in the long run.

That assumes the foreman has those skills, and they may not.

Troubleshooting is a mix of knowledge and intuition, where you can apply the knowledge and form an idea about what might be wrong and where. So learn everything you can about basic electrical theory, how to read blueprints, how the factory is wired, and how the equipment is used. Sometimes, the trouble report will come from a machine operator who says "Takes too long to heat." Why? Is it electrical or gas heat? What controls the heat? What is "too long" anyway. Maybe there's a cold wind blowing at the machine and it's 20 deg colder than the operator.
 

RichB

Senior Member
Location
Tacoma, Wa
Occupation
Electrician/Electrical Inspector
That assumes the foreman has those skills, and they may not.

Troubleshooting is a mix of knowledge and intuition, where you can apply the knowledge and form an idea about what might be wrong and where. So learn everything you can about basic electrical theory, how to read blueprints, how the factory is wired, and how the equipment is used. Sometimes, the trouble report will come from a machine operator who says "Takes too long to heat." Why? Is it electrical or gas heat? What controls the heat? What is "too long" anyway. Maybe there's a cold wind blowing at the machine and it's 20 deg colder than the operator.

Plus one on every bodies answers and zbang's especially--

Troubleshooting is really a personal thing--the way I do it is not the way you do it--for example--when I get a call that a phase is missing the first thing I do, after verifying the problem really exists, is open a panel and use a DVM to go Phase-to-Phase then phase to neutral and/or ground--and check the overloads at the same time-I have one guy who likes to start with the control voltage/circuits-sometimes I even have fun confounding the people I work with using this answer when they ask what the heck am I doing--I just answer "Doesn't feel right--it's got to be over here in this part of the circuit"-that's the intuition from 30 plus years of being a troubleshooter--remember--this is all equipment dependent

Anyway---This is a great place to learn, got some awesome people here!!! Just need to ask!!
 

Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician Semi-retired
The best advice I can give you, other than to by systematical about it (don't just scattershot your measurements, start at one place and work through) is something my father taught me, but was very hard to actually put in practice.

When you are trying to fix something, and you see something that is wrong, but you say "that couldn't possibly be the cause of the problem I am trying to fix, I will take care of it after I get the main problem fixed" FIX IT. There is a high probability it is your problem, but you can't see how they are related.

Secondly, when you replace a bad part, if you can, tear it apart to see the actual failure mode and how it is supposed to work.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I recently took a position as a maintenance electrician for an industrial company. I have a strong background in the construction aspect of electrical, but I'm finding I lack some of the troubleshooting skills needed in an industrial plant. Is there any online classes of websites that anyone would recommend. I considered taking some classes at the local tech school, but there schedule was too demanding to meet my work needs, and help would be appreciated.

I have been in the service / repair side most of my career and a few things I can say I have noticed that new guys have trouble with.

1) It worked before, that means all the wires and connections where right. Don't start changing things. (This may sound obvious but I have seen people screw this up many times.)

2) If you take something apart to check it out put it back together the way it was before jumping to another part of the machine or building. (Again, basic but I see it happen)

3) Document what you do, use wire markers, paper notes, voice notes whatever works for you. Take pictures. I have a smart phone and take tons of pictures. It is much easier to put it back the way it was if you have pictures.

4) Ask the customer or machine operator lots of questions. Things like 'Did someone recently work on the machine?' Was there work being done in the building?', When did you first notice it?' etc.
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
As Bob and others have said, ask questions of those familiar with the equipment/operation, but ALWAYS take the information given with a grain of salt. I'm sure most here have been told nobody has touched it, was working fine previously...only to find out to the contrary. Had an interesting prof at Purdue(not the chicken producer) who taught a troubleshooting class. First lab we all were given a Heathkit(?) radio chassis and a schematic. Had 3 hours to make it work. Pored over the schematic, checking obvious things. With time running down, somebody's radio started blaring music. Vacuum tubes had been switched in the sockets. The lesson, when somebody brings you in to fix something, and they say they haven't touched it, don't believe them....I forget this one from time to time.
 

HEYDOG

Senior Member
Go to WECA web site, Western Electrical Contractors Association. They have some excellent online troubleshooting classes. They are worth the money and you can get a certificate when are finished.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
ask questions of those familiar with the equipment/operation, but ALWAYS take the information given with a grain of salt.

That is a very good point. :thumbsup:

In my five years servicing rides at an amusement park I don't think I ever had an operator admit damaging the equipment which often turned out to be the cause of the problem.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I agree that a lot of things that go wrong can be traced to something that was "fixed" recently. The key is to figure out just what was done sometimes.

Every once in a while though, you get a really obscure problem that has you scratching your head.

Last week i spent an afternoon and a morning working on a test stand that had a really strange problem. It had been moved recently and after being moved the operator had run some parts on it to make sure it still worked correctly.

After that, the plant safety guy had decided that it had to have an Estop PB added. After the e-stop PB was added, it stopped working and failed every part. So first they removed the Estop. Still didn't work. Then they replaced a pressure switch and a valve. Still didn't work so they figured it was a software bug and called me.

I finally came to the conclusion that both the software and wiring was OK. By random chance the engineer that designed the test stand 20 some years ago was there, so we worked on it together and eventually he determined that a quick connect fitting had failed. It was on a 10,000 psi hose and there was a bit of a shock load on it and the little ball was being forced into the seat so hard that after many years of service the ball was sticking in the seat so it was closed on the back side of the fitting. Never seen anything like that before.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Plus one on every bodies answers and zbang's especially--

Troubleshooting is really a personal thing--the way I do it is not the way you do it--for example--when I get a call that a phase is missing the first thing I do, after verifying the problem really exists, is open a panel and use a DVM to go Phase-to-Phase then phase to neutral and/or ground--and check the overloads at the same time-I have one guy who likes to start with the control voltage/circuits-sometimes I even have fun confounding the people I work with using this answer when they ask what the heck am I doing--I just answer "Doesn't feel right--it's got to be over here in this part of the circuit"-that's the intuition from 30 plus years of being a troubleshooter--remember--this is all equipment dependent

Anyway---This is a great place to learn, got some awesome people here!!! Just need to ask!!

troubleshooting is fun and you get to be the hero, unless of course you can't figure it out, then you
get to be the poophead.

the intuition part isn't something you can teach... hell, it's not something i can describe. sometimes
you will just look at something, and go hmmmm.... but intuition works a lot better when you are asking
a bunch of questions. when did it start doing it? what has been done around here recently. new operator
on the machine?

sometimes it's blind luck. once i was in a bucket at 60', tracing a stop string and other wiring on a
75' rolling high bay door where it interlocked with a top hinged crane door, to find out why the interlock
failed, and a bird came and landed on a limit switch whisker about 10' away, pushing it down....
i just looked at the guy next to me in the bucket, and said "i'm sure glad you are up here, because
without a witness, nobody is going to believe this..."

when things are deranged, i start looking at ground loops, and floating neutrals. i spent two days picking
flychit out of pepper on my work van. you'd hit a bump, and the ECC would throw different error codes
each time. the engine remote start would activate. the alarm would go on, and off by itself. crazy
unrelated system failures.

the problem? a loose connection on a binding post for the primary +12 volts to the under hood
fuse block.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I agree that a lot of things that go wrong can be traced to something that was "fixed" recently. The key is to figure out just what was done sometimes.

Every once in a while though, you get a really obscure problem that has you scratching your head.

Last week i spent an afternoon and a morning working on a test stand that had a really strange problem. It had been moved recently and after being moved the operator had run some parts on it to make sure it still worked correctly.

After that, the plant safety guy had decided that it had to have an Estop PB added. After the e-stop PB was added, it stopped working and failed every part. So first they removed the Estop. Still didn't work. Then they replaced a pressure switch and a valve. Still didn't work so they figured it was a software bug and called me.

I finally came to the conclusion that both the software and wiring was OK. By random chance the engineer that designed the test stand 20 some years ago was there, so we worked on it together and eventually he determined that a quick connect fitting had failed. It was on a 10,000 psi hose and there was a bit of a shock load on it and the little ball was being forced into the seat so hard that after many years of service the ball was sticking in the seat so it was closed on the back side of the fitting. Never seen anything like that before.

So many times with complicated pieces of equipment, it starts with electric when it really isn't. The more reliable a sub-system is, the less likely we are to assume it's the source of our grief. Since electrical systems and software seem to break down "all the time" (for whatever interval value "all the time" may represent to you), that's where we look. For whatever reason, hydraulic, pneumatic and mechanical systems are a far second place in our minds.
 
Adding to all that....

As Reagan said, "Trust, but verify"; don't be afraid to recheck what someone else told you.

Listen to the old-timer's "war stories". Like the bird on the limit switch, I heard one that ended up being direct sunlight hitting a light-beam sensor; the control system thought the path was always clear. But only on sunny mornings when the sun's angle was just right and the roll-up door was open.

Oh, and don't assume what everyone else calls "normal" is really "normal" or correct.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Adding to all that....

As Reagan said, "Trust, but verify"; don't be afraid to recheck what someone else told you.

Listen to the old-timer's "war stories". Like the bird on the limit switch, I heard one that ended up being direct sunlight hitting a light-beam sensor; the control system thought the path was always clear. But only on sunny mornings when the sun's angle was just right and the roll-up door was open.

Oh, and don't assume what everyone else calls "normal" is really "normal" or correct.

We had this little adventure at an explosives plant I worked in. It happened before my time, but the tale was well know. PriMac was an early very high speed (~100msec) suppression system. It was installed in one of the glazing buildings over the warm months. It incorporated a UV detector. The sun angle changed as the months grew shorter. Suddenly one morning the sensor was smacked by full sun light. Instant pool party.
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
study prints, ask questions. I was studying the prints, learn how everything is suppose work. once you know how it works your troubleshooting will get better. go watch the machines, talk to the operators.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Ask yourself "whats changed"
For most its always an electrical problem, when its more likely to be a bad bearing
Buy a Brother labeler, look at the PTE 300 or 500. Label as you go............
 
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