pool, spa, hot tub disconnection means.

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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I still scratch my head when thinking about hot tub disconnects..

Would a disconnect be required not less than 5' from the tub? Or is a disconnect, either supplied and installed by the contractor or factory installed in the unit under the "skirt" of the tub acceptable?

Looking for some time of answer to put this thought to bed, I went to 680.12, which references "pool, spa, hot tub". That one or more means (okay) to "simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors" shall be provided for all utilization equipment. Simultaneously..... all :huh:???? If I used a 6 or 8 circuit (main lug) panel, would that then have to be a main breaker? Or is it worded weird and and they meant to open all ungrounded legs to each piece of equipment (("each means"........sounds like multiple main disconnects in series?? or multiple disconnects for multiple piece of equipment))

As far as the hot tub, would a disconnect be not less than 5', or is the skirt (covering, with access hatch) being considered a permanent barrier and thats why you don't see disconnects mounted on walls by hot tubs?
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
The above question was for single family residence,

In 680.41 (not one family) it mentions an emergency switch has to be located not less than 5', readily accessible, adjacent, within sight of?????..

does any of the wording readily accessible, adjacent, within sight of "imply" the max distance of this emergency switch? (I know it's usually 25' AND within sight of???.but it doesn't say that)

can I install one down the block?., in the next town?

what specifies a "max" distance?

Thank you
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The above question was for single family residence,

In 680.41 (not one family) it mentions an emergency switch has to be located not less than 5', readily accessible, adjacent, within sight of?????..

does any of the wording readily accessible, adjacent, within sight of "imply" the max distance of this emergency switch? (I know it's usually 25' AND within sight of???.but it doesn't say that)

can I install one down the block?., in the next town?

what specifies a "max" distance?

Thank you

Look at the definition for "In sight from". Since 680.41 uses within sight this will apply

In Sight From (Within Sight From, Within Sight).
Where this Code specifies that one equipment shall be ?in
sight from,? ?within sight from,? or ?within sight of,? and so
forth, another equipment, the specified equipment is to be visible
and not more than 15 m (50 ft) distant from the other.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Would a disconnect be required not less than 5' from the tub? Or is a disconnect, either supplied and installed by the contractor or factory installed in the unit under the "skirt" of the tub acceptable?
No it is required to be no less than 5' t the tub

Simultaneously..... all :huh:???? If I used a 6 or 8 circuit (main lug) panel, would that then have to be a main breaker? Or is it worded weird and and they meant to open all ungrounded legs to each piece of equipment (("each means"........sounds like multiple main disconnects in series?? or multiple disconnects for multiple piece of equipment))
When would you have more than one branch circuit that feeds a tub? Geerally you would have the disconnect within sight and no closer than 5' from the tub. That disconnect will simultaneously disconnect all the circuits that feed the tub from the factory install control center and panelboard that is under the tub.

As far as the hot tub, would a disconnect be not less than 5', or is the skirt (covering, with access hatch) being considered a permanent barrier and thats why you don't see disconnects mounted on walls by hot tubs?
I think this has been answered above
 

edlee

Senior Member
Like any piece of equipment a hot-tub has to have a maintenance/service disconnect. The emergency shut-off in commercial installations is for the users and doesn't necessarily replace the disconnect.

I have noticed that sometimes people (electricians I mean!) get confused about the two and their application.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
No it is required to be no less than 5' t the tub

When would you have more than one branch circuit that feeds a tub? Geerally you would have the disconnect within sight and no closer than 5' from the tub. That disconnect will simultaneously disconnect all the circuits that feed the tub from the factory install control center and panelboard that is under the tub.

I think this has been answered above

Sorry for the confusion. For more than one I was talking about pools where a main lug oanel would be installed for several pieces of equipment

Simultaneous open all non grounded conductors.


And the 25 and within insight of .... Brain burp 50. Thank you.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Still tub confused. SO. thou shalt not install the disconnect to a tub any closer than five feet. Under the access hatch is ng?

And within sight of. From the controls or the inside wall (outside wall) of the tub ? Or both ?

A deck is built around the tub so the deck is even to the top if the tub wall.
The access hatch is under the deck. Does that disconnect need to be five feet away from the hatch? Underneath the deck ?

Sorry for my denseness. Just that I've seen them installed underneath and installed two myself with no repercussions.


How does one install a disconnect where it may be visible from the tub. Some beautiful homes Yard and tub areas. Seams nutty to stick an eye sore like a disconnect there

Thank you.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The control panel under the tub stays where it is but it will not count as the disconnect for the tub. The tub disconnect must be at least 5' away and not more than 50' and must be within sight.

If you have a panel feeding many tubs then each disconnect must simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors going to that tub-- not all the tubs
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
The control panel under the tub stays where it is but it will not count as the disconnect for the tub. The tub disconnect must be at least 5' away and not more than 50' and must be within sight.

If you have a panel feeding many tubs then each disconnect must simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors going to that tub-- not all the tubs

Okay got it, thank you?.

Now please substitute the word pool for tub? would "A" (singular) be necessary to disconnect the pool? All the pumps, and whatever else (except the lighting) with a SINGLE throw??? Simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors.

I've seen and installed pool panels that where main lug (never seen or installed a main breaker) with several breakers in that panel for motor disconnection means??.. not sure, but from the language of this article is it stating that ALL the motors must be disconnected SIMULTANEOUSLY????which would mean that that pool panel should be a main breaker panel and not a main lug.

Thanks again
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Okay.. now I'm asking about a pool which is in the same article

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.

One or more means to simultaneously disconnect ALL ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. EACH means shall be accessible and?. from the walls of a POOL, spa or hot tub???


??? one or more means to SIMULTANEOUSLY DISCONNECT ALL UNGROUNDED CONDUCTORS?

It doesn't say to one pump or that or this pump for servicing..? it says ALL ungrounded conductors..

My question is???..DO ALL THE PUMPS AND EQUIPMENT ( except for lighting) NEED TO BE SIMULTANEOUSLY DISCONNECTED ?

That seams to be what it says.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Last time---- Yes but the disconnect that you install that is within sight will disconnect the power to all the equipment in the tub.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Think don answered it????. still not sure as the way the article reads though???.

the last comment say's the panel would have to be 6 disconnects?????.

Why? because a pool is a structure..

If installing an indoor pool where the pool panel is fed from that structure, shouldn't that panel be able to be more than 6 throws? right?

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=147613
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
back to the TUB???????TUB?????TUB???????

no less than 5' and within sight of???????????????.

again, there is a wooden deck built around the tub, the deck is even with the top wall of the TUB ????????..

You can't see the side of the tub where the control is???????????????..it's covered over by the deck???.you have to go underneath the deck to get to the control panel?????..

There is still a wall of the tub, but underneath????maybe even more of a wall than viewed from the top of the deck?.

Would the disconnect be required within sight from being in the tub/sitting on the deck with your feet in the tub with a cocktail?
Or would the disconnect be required no less than 5 ' under the deck, where there is dirt and spiders and you are sweating and hitting your head?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Last time---- Yes but the disconnect that you install that is within sight will disconnect the power to all the equipment in the tub.

I suppose you have not seen one of those spa panels that come with the spa that have separate GFCI breakers for everything.
SO a disco will not work , Then there is the fact I have never seen these come with a main breaker or a provision to add one.
Then you would be asking the contractor to throw away the one that came with the spa and make them buy a new one.

YEA,,,
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
back to the TUB???????TUB?????TUB???????

no less than 5' and within sight of???????????????.

again, there is a wooden deck built around the tub, the deck is even with the top wall of the TUB ????????..

You can't see the side of the tub where the control is???????????????..it's covered over by the deck???.you have to go underneath the deck to get to the control panel?????..

There is still a wall of the tub, but underneath????maybe even more of a wall than viewed from the top of the deck?.

Would the disconnect be required within sight from being in the tub/sitting on the deck with your feet in the tub with a cocktail?
Or would the disconnect be required no less than 5 ' under the deck, where there is dirt and spiders and you are sweating and hitting your head?

I'd say within sight of the electrical control panel where one will be working on it. If above will not be within sight or control of the workman.

Emergency shut-offs are not required in SFR's
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I suppose you have not seen one of those spa panels that come with the spa that have separate GFCI breakers for everything.
SO a disco will not work , Then there is the fact I have never seen these come with a main breaker or a provision to add one.
Then you would be asking the contractor to throw away the one that came with the spa and make them buy a new one.

YEA,,,

Why would a disconnect work? I have seen the spas that have a panel with individual breakers for the tub. If a non fused disconnect is added within sight then that will disconnect the power to the panel. If there are no gfci breakers in the panel supplied by the manufacturer then a disconnect with a dp gfci breaker is what you need and install it within sight.

What am I missing here
 
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