Testing GFCI?s & EFCI's:

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Tony S

Senior Member
The quote talks about criminal penalties ...those are very rare for code violations. Things like a red tag and not getting a certificate of occupancy are not criminal penalties.

Can I ask Don, have you been in court accused of negligence?

I can assure you, it isn?t fun and not something to be lightly dismissed as it won?t happen to me.

Just to reassure you I was totally exonerated and the guy that brought the charge got a hefty fine and the court fees for endangering himself.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
the L word reareth it's ugly head....?

the L word reareth it's ugly head....?

The USA is probably the most litigant culture on this rock.

One could argue either regs or lack of regs as culprit.

But if you're an EC here , you've best have your 'spidy sense' on going out the door.

Probably the most prevalant posted on any pro board are Home Inspectors. An HI in many states can be anything from an engineering level qualifications, to boxcar willy. Many simply having zero benchmark qualifier at all...

As EC's we're constantly being handed their 'list' of small sundry ado's, usually double tapped breakers, open junctions, etc.

Many of these structures weren't wired by a bona fide electrician originally , with many openly revealing handyman debaucheries over time.

What have i learned of this?

If we as the EC walk by it all, and do so on the HI's call, we are liable.

Why?

Because we were the LAST qualified entity to enter/view/work on the property. Trust me on this, i've been asked 'which side of the bench' i'd like to be on more than once here....

The Fix you say?

Standardized testing

I Rest My case :)
~RJ~
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Can I ask Don, have you been in court accused of negligence?

I can assure you, it isn?t fun and not something to be lightly dismissed as it won?t happen to me.

Just to reassure you I was totally exonerated and the guy that brought the charge got a hefty fine and the court fees for endangering himself.
I have never been in court for anything like that, but my point is that it would be very very rare for an electrician or an electrical contractor to be in court on criminal charges related to an electrical installation. If you are in court it would be much more likely to be in civil court for something like that. Even being in civil court is rare when you look at the number of suits and the number of electricians and electrical contractors.

If you are saying we should be doing more testing than is customary in the US to stay out of court, I don't see it that way. One of the defenses would be that the contractor and or electrician had complied with the codes, contract documents, and did everything that is reasonable and customary.
 

JRW 70

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Central Missouri
Occupation
Testing and Engineer
Standardized Practices

Standardized Practices

Don's point is exactly correct. If the project
was completed to all applicable requirements
at the time of installation or modification, then
there is really no grounds to get standing in court
if you are aware of the process.
Unfortunately, there is a fairly low level required
to get standing in a civil case.
I have been to court several times and that is what
dissuaded me from taking the bar exam. I didn't want
to deal with any of that if I could possibly avoid it.
I have control over what I do now, and don't have to
try to convince someone to believe a certian way.

So, as it has been said here many times, some projects
are too much of a problem to even get involved with.

Common sense and defensive work practices are now
the rule rather than the exception.

JR
 

Tony S

Senior Member
And are we arguing over a 5 minute test?


~RJ~

I?m looking at things from the outside inward.

This isn?t about a five minute test, it?s about not wanting to pay for and maintain certified test equipment. Customers lives and property don?t enter in to the equation, the easy way out is pretend it doesn?t exist.

I haven?t seen a valid argument why testing shouldn?t be done. That is a valid argument backed up with proven facts and figures.


I don?t know how many of you have worked on MV equipment or know how the testing is done. I wrote our companies procedures following the guidelines set by the DNO (POCO).
If something went wrong there was a paper trail back to both mine and the other engineers desks. We had to check and countersign every procedure. There was no wriggling out of the responsibility.

As the sign on President Truman's desk said ?The Buck Stops Here.?


I?ll ask a question, do you give a warranty/guarantee with your work, do you have insurance to back it up?
Or is it like testing, fingers crossed and hope it will be OK?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
I?ll ask a question, do you give a warranty/guarantee with your work, do you have insurance to back it up?
Or is it like testing, fingers crossed and hope it will be OK?
In many cases both of those are required by law, but testing that is not required by the code or by the contract documents is just not going to happen.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Just to play the devil's advocate for a minute... ;)

I agree that testing is a good idea, but not here, and here's why.

First off, our code has a staggering amount of overkill and CYA built into it. It almost always errs on the side of caution and it does so by a huge margin. Ampacity ratings are a good example of this. In Europe, it's not only common, but totally acceptable for wiring to run warm. Here in the US, a warm wire or cable is generally taken as a warning sign.

Very few electricians or electrical contractors (in the overall scheme of things) here are as well educated in the trade as their European counterparts. This forum notwithstanding, the average electrician you meet on the street is probably not going to have a good understanding of what he can do with a DMM let alone an installation tester. He also most likely does not understand how a GFCI or AFCI device works. The same low level of qualifications applies to many of the people who conduct fire investigations, at least judging by how hard it seems to be to get any kind of useful statistics regarding causes of fires with any kind of detailed forensics. Forensics seems to get better when there's a fatality, but if we're going to be serious about electrical safety, we need detailed forensics for all electrical fires.

The (sad) bottom line is that most likely we'd be hard pressed to produce any group of residential contractors qualified enough to conduct that level of testing nationwide within any kind of reasonable time span.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
We do have testing, but it's a one time event applicable to mobile homes, which incorporate low grade electrical goods we could not use in a normal stick built home >>>

550.17 Testing.
(A) Dielectric Strength Test. The wiring of each mobile
home shall be sUbjected to a I-minute, 900-volt, dielectric
strength test (with all switches closed) between live parts
(including neutral conductor) and the mobile home ground.
Alternatively, the test shall be permitted to be performed at
1080 volts for J second. This test shall be performed after
branch circuits are complete and after luminaires or appli-
ances are installed.

Our GFCI's went for decades until the advent of the lockout , allegedly self diagnostic, feature

Our AFCI's do not have this feature, installing 30 odd sensitive computers the size of a pea across the mains apparently not being a concern.

The irony is, they are required for the expected decay of our wiring methods.

The truth is, they would probably not be required if our methods were addressed and monitored.

As an EC, what would we rather hang our hats on?

~RJ~
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
This is a follow on from the discussion about AFCI?s where EFCI?s (RCD?s) and GFCI?s (RCBO?s) got included in the general mix of things.


Press the button and see if it works method seems to be the accepted way of testing.

Now I?ll ask some questions.

Do you know the response time? It could be crucial when someone receives an electric shock.

Is the test circuit within its parameters? It could very well be faulty and tripping a 10x the rated current. Would you know?
This is the accepted method in the UK:

To test RCD?s and RCBO?s there are eight tests in total.

This isn?t about a five minute test, it?s about not wanting to pay for and maintain certified test equipment.

The key words are "accepted method".

In the UK you have an accepted method for field testing.

Try and find an accepted method for testing GFCIs and AFCIs other than the test button.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Try and find an accepted method for testing GFCIs and AFCIs other than the test button.

Agreed!

Tony S, really, try and find an accepted method for testing US GFCIs and AFCIs. Really. :happyyes:

We've been struggling with the manufacturers and nationally recognized testing laboratories to give us ANYTHING that will allow us, the lowly installers and end users, to actually LEGALLY test AFCIs, to actually demonstrate what trips them for a decade an a half. There have been manufacturer's representatives, along the way, that have joined and participated in this Forum to lobby for AFCIs.

All attempts by us, the installer / end user, to find a single accepted testing method other than the TEST button, have been stone walled.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
Agreed!

Tony S, really, try and find an accepted method for testing US GFCIs and AFCIs. Really. :happyyes:

We've been struggling with the manufacturers and nationally recognized testing laboratories to give us ANYTHING that will allow us, the lowly installers and end users, to actually LEGALLY test AFCIs, to actually demonstrate what trips them for a decade an a half. There have been manufacturer's representatives, along the way, that have joined and participated in this Forum to lobby for AFCIs.

All attempts by us, the installer / end user, to find a single accepted testing method other than the TEST button, have been stone walled.

I?m up for a challenge, I can work out the theory but being retired will make the initial testing hard to prove as I don?t have the company resources behind me now.

Where it gets difficult is you don?t have a MFT, I don?t have an AFCI and there?s a big puddle in the middle.

There is a UK certified test house that will help me. It now being weekend that idea is on hold until Monday when I can give them a call.

What would help is a circuit diagram of the AFCI test and sensing circuit if anyone has one.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I?m up for a challenge, I can work out the theory but being retired will make the initial testing hard to prove as I don?t have the company resources behind me now.

Where it gets difficult is you don?t have a MFT, I don?t have an AFCI and there?s a big puddle in the middle.

There is a UK certified test house that will help me. It now being weekend that idea is on hold until Monday when I can give them a call.

What would help is a circuit diagram of the AFCI test and sensing circuit if anyone has one.
The problem with testing AFCIs is the proprietary software that each manufacturer uses to detect the "arcing faults".
 

Tony S

Senior Member
Just a minute! Where did AFCI?s come from?

We were talking about testing GFCI?s and EFCI?s.
It is 02:00 and I?m tired, I have influenza and didn?t notice the change to AFCI?s.

As far as I?m concerned they are your problem pal. We?re sure our systems are safe, tested and certified. We definitely don?t need them.
Does that sound a familiar argument?
You don?t need testing methods for GFCI?s and EFCI?s, because you now have AFCI?s to cover for your mistakes when they happen.

The UK test house will help with research on GFCI?s and EFCI?s, I know exactly what they will tell me to do about AFCI?s.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Just a minute! Where did AFCI?s come from?

We were talking about testing GFCI?s and EFCI?s.
It is 02:00 and I?m tired, I have influenza and didn?t notice the change to AFCI?s.

As far as I?m concerned they are your problem pal. We?re sure our systems are safe, tested and certified. We definitely don?t need them.
Does that sound a familiar argument?
You don?t need testing methods for GFCI?s and EFCI?s, because you now have AFCI?s to cover for your mistakes when they happen.

The UK test house will help with research on GFCI?s and EFCI?s, I know exactly what they will tell me to do about AFCI?s.

I bet nothing positive :lol:
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Just a minute! Where did AFCI?s come from? ...
The last sentence of post #53.
...
You don?t need testing methods for GFCI?s and EFCI?s, because you now have AFCI?s to cover for your mistakes when they happen.
...
That would assume that the AFCIs actually work ...something that I have not been convinced of.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
You have doubts that what the manufacturer tells you may be incorrect?

From the beginning of the push by "interested individuals and groups" to establish the "idea" of Arc Fault Circuit Interruption as a device that is required to be installed in Dwellings, the "interested individuals and groups" have published claims about what AFCIs do. The bulk of the published claims had nothing to do with any documentation from the actual AFCI hardware and software, as, in the beginning, no working AFCI devices were available to be purchased and installed. The bulk of the published claims were based upon other claims of the POSSIBILITY of what the AFCI will do in the future. The first requirements placed in the 1999 National Electrical Code (NEC) were written, published and adopted into local law by various (and many) jurisdictions across America in this initial period of years, with a NEC mandated delay of enforcement until Jan. 1, 2002, because there were no working AFCIs available to buy and install in Dwellings AT THE TIME OF THE WRITING.

Once actual AFCI devices became available to purchase and install, all documentation was notably lacking any factual information about the working of the device, and it became immediately clear that each manufacturer had an individual and PROPRIETARY solution to the "idea" of AFCI.

As I said, in my previous post in this thread, this Forum had a couple manufacturer's representatives join and participate in discussion with us. I, for one, and many others here, entreated being shown ANY documentation of how they work. Nothing was released to us. Think about that. A group of highly educated, licensed and credentialed, curious professionals that work daily to install and service this new product are denied, by silence or even direct obfuscation, the information to be effective in providing good service to the end user of the manufacturer's AFCI.

The manufacturer's have stonewalled any technical AFCI information to the installers and end users.

An advanced technology should not require the blind faith of its users and/or installers.

Yes. You bet I have doubts about the manufacturer's claims.
 
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