Tripping AFCI Breakers

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jerjwillelec

Senior Member
Location
Nevada, IA
I'm dealing with a fairly new Cutler Hammer CH Series Loadcenter that all of the AFCI breakers are tripping. Been going on for a year or more now. Very inconsistent too...may be 3 times in one day but then go 5 months with nothing. Sometimes just a few, other times every single one. Anyone dealt with this before?

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GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
Look for some source of strong radio frequency interference in the neighborhood. That could affect many breakers at once and could be very sporadic.
 

jerjwillelec

Senior Member
Location
Nevada, IA
Makes sense...this is likely the only home in the neighborhood with AFCI breakers as they all predate that Code. What do I look for and how do I look for it?

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jerjwillelec

Senior Member
Location
Nevada, IA
And what would you consider to be "strong"? I did a quick Internet search on RFI sources and there is quite a bit out there...some more than others

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GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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And what would you consider to be "strong"? I did a quick Internet search on RFI sources and there is quite a bit out there...some more than others

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A low power VHF two way radio in or near the house.
A higher power communication signal such as Amateur Radio, particularly with a directional antenna that might be pointed in the direction of the house from time to time (and the onus would be on the breaker to reject that signal.)
Maybe a close cell tower?
 

jerjwillelec

Senior Member
Location
Nevada, IA
So, called support and they have indeed had issues with RFI on these breakers. Going to send a couple in to be tested. We'll see... Thank you!

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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I'm dealing with a fairly new Cutler Hammer CH Series Loadcenter that all of the AFCI breakers are tripping. Been going on for a year or more now. Very inconsistent too...may be 3 times in one day but then go 5 months with nothing. Sometimes just a few, other times every single one. Anyone dealt with this before?

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I would first eliminate the possibility of an EGC folding back along side of an outlet and coming into contact with the grounded neutral conductor. This may occur when installing NM cable. This is wher we I would start first. Then proceed with the theoretical reasons such as rfi, etc.
You may want to disconnect as of the loads from the circuit in question turn off the breaker, removed the line and neutral connections from the breaker and the EGC from the ground bar. By measuring the resistance between the neutral and the EGC it should show to be an open circuit if the neutral is insulated and isolated from the EGC. Remember that an AFCI does have GF protection of 30ma as I recall which quite often is the cause of nuisance trips.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Please consider reporting unwanted AFCI tripping at the online submission form at www.AFCISafety.org

This way ALL of the manufacturers of AFCI devices are aware of the issue and able to respond. You may be experiencing something that has been previously reported and already has a solution in place.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I would first eliminate the possibility of an EGC folding back along side of an outlet and coming into contact with the grounded neutral conductor. This may occur when installing NM cable. This is wher we I would start first. Then proceed with the theoretical reasons such as rfi, etc.
You may want to disconnect as of the loads from the circuit in question turn off the breaker, removed the line and neutral connections from the breaker and the EGC from the ground bar. By measuring the resistance between the neutral and the EGC it should show to be an open circuit if the neutral is insulated and isolated from the EGC. Remember that an AFCI does have GF protection of 30ma as I recall which quite often is the cause of nuisance trips.

That is a perfectly good explanation for a single branch AFCI trip. It is much less likely to explain tripping of varying numbers, up to all in the panel. I do not think that the GF function in an AFCI breaker has the same neutral injection test for a downstream neutral ground bond that a GFCI receptacle or breaker does.
And the spurious bond would only be downstream from one of the branch breakers.
 

jerjwillelec

Senior Member
Location
Nevada, IA
That is a perfectly good explanation for a single branch AFCI trip. It is much less likely to explain tripping of varying numbers, up to all in the panel. I do not think that the GF function in an AFCI breaker has the same neutral injection test for a downstream neutral ground bond that a GFCI receptacle or breaker does.
And the spurious bond would only be downstream from one of the branch breakers.
Agreed...

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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
That is a perfectly good explanation for a single branch AFCI trip. It is much less likely to explain tripping of varying numbers, up to all in the panel. I do not think that the GF function in an AFCI breaker has the same neutral injection test for a downstream neutral ground bond that a GFCI receptacle or breaker does.
And the spurious bond would only be downstream from one of the branch breakers.
I also agree. As a beta test sight for C-H in my own home I had an 20a AFCI trip which I traced to a outlet in a 4x4 box just cramed with #12. The bare EGC had simply folded back coming into contact with the neutral screw. Although it may not have appeared to be hazard the neutral contact to the EGC allowed neutrsl currents to be turned loose and made available on all of the EGCs in my home which could have posed as a shock hazard for this those who may have come into contact with items grounded via the EGC as neutral currents intended to be insulted and isolated to the neutral conductor would have been shared with the EGC. The current on the EGC would be available even on water pipe providing a shock hazard to the plumbing system.
As such a tripping AFCI even though it may not represent a hazardous condition directly may be an indication of a wiring deficiency which would be worthy of a further review.
After varifying the integrity of the wiring then other causes for a trip could then be considered.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
any plants around that use big motors?? a ring wave spike can cause some breakers to see an imbalance.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I also agree. As a beta test sight for C-H in my own home I had an 20a AFCI trip which I traced to a outlet in a 4x4 box just cramed with #12. The bare EGC had simply folded back coming into contact with the neutral screw. Although it may not have appeared to be hazard the neutral contact to the EGC allowed neutrsl currents to be turned loose and made available on all of the EGCs in my home which could have posed as a shock hazard for this those who may have come into contact with items grounded via the EGC as neutral currents intended to be insulted and isolated to the neutral conductor would have been shared with the EGC. The current on the EGC would be available even on water pipe providing a shock hazard to the plumbing system.
As such a tripping AFCI even though it may not represent a hazardous condition directly may be an indication of a wiring deficiency which would be worthy of a further review.
After varifying the integrity of the wiring then other causes for a trip could then be considered.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D
A GFCI or GFPE breaker would do the same thing and they don't need their own web site like bphgravity mentioned to report problems to.

Why do we need AFCI's?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I'm dealing with a fairly new Cutler Hammer CH Series Loadcenter that all of the AFCI breakers are tripping. Been going on for a year or more now. Very inconsistent too...may be 3 times in one day but then go 5 months with nothing. Sometimes just a few, other times every single one. Anyone dealt with this before?

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Make sure the circuit is clean, swap them out with a GFCI breaker. If the circuit doesn't have any N to EGC faults then the only thing else to do is call Cutler Hammer and lean on them to send you some newer, better breakers at no charge. They won't pay you to put them in but at least you don't have to buy their breakers twice.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
A GFCI or GFPE breaker would do the same thing and they don't need their own web site like bphgravity mentioned to report problems to.

Why do we need AFCI's?

I would like to believe that the AFCI products would reduce the incidence of electrical fires saving lies and property dasmage. In theory they make sense. I know that the manufactures have taken the technology very seriously and have invested cvountkes millions of dollars in the technology.
BUT, what I haven't seen any reaction from the field regarding what a great product they are. The feed back from electricians and inspectors regarding positive incidences have been slim to none as well as those from the insurance industry. Saving lies and property you would like to think would have been reflected in the insurance industry by the encouragement of their use as well as a possible a reduced premium incentive and that is where I believe the rubber meets the road which is a disappointment to me.
I'm still waiting.
 
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