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Thread: NM Or MC in church

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    Without factoring in any local amendments I don't see IBC changing anything in NEC.
    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    It dosn't mater that the IBC defines a place of assembly based on 50 occupants, the NEC only addresses assembly with occupant loading based on 100 occupants. There is no conflict between both documents
    Er, yeah it does matter.

    If AHJ says IBC definition applies, it does. As far as the argument that one must only adhere to the NEC and an inspector can only inspect to it, or IRC or whatever,,,,nope. All applicable codes apply to any install.

    One simply cannot violate another code saying that the NEC only applies. It does work that way.
    Nor can one chose which codes one is going to only follow. The NEC is not the end of the line.

    Nothing in the NEC says you cannot butcher an engineered structure beam, glue lam is an example, by drilling holes willy nilly. So you all think one would be okay doing it? Not in the slightest way.

    “But the inspector is only authorized to inspect electrical.” Okay, electrical inspector simply calls his building inspector co worker at the office, who comes down and red tags it. Now you have two irritated inspectors and the job is still a fail. Not good.

    Many inspectors are combo types, so the red tag process is even quicker.

    Why the two codes have different numbers for what constitutes a place of assembly, I have no clue. But I will say that the AHJ is gonna pick which number, not the electrician/ contractor,EE.

    And no, there does not have to be a formal statute declaring which applies, rather it is in the absence of one, which is the case many times, that will empower the AHJ to decide.
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

  2. #12
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    no body said all that

    Where does the NEC say to apply the restrictions in a Church Assembly occupancy with a load of 60 occupants?

    Except for the assembly occupancies explicitly covered by 520.1, this article covers all buildings or portions of buildings or structures designed or intended for the gathering together of 100 or more persons




    Except for the assembly occupancies explicitly covered by 520.1, this article covers all buildings or portions of buildings or structures designed or intended for the gathering together of 100 or more persons
    Last edited by david; 01-13-18 at 12:08 PM.

  3. #13
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    I don't totally agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by jumper View Post
    Er, yeah it does matter.

    If AHJ says IBC definition applies, it does. As far as the argument that one must only adhere to the NEC and an inspector can only inspect to it, or IRC or whatever,,,,nope. All applicable codes apply to any instalIBC definitions apply to IBC, NEC definitions apply to NEC. Does anything in 518 say "refer to IBC" when it comes to occupancy requirements that trigger 518? If AHJ has a local amendment that says so that is the exception, otherwise as is neither document leans on the other one here.

    One simply cannot violate another code saying that the NEC only applies. It does work that way.
    Nor can one chose which codes one is going to only follow. The NEC is not the end of the lin True, there can be multiple codes that must be complied with. I am not familiar with IBC at all, does it tell us what to do for electrical here, or is it's "place of assembly" designation have more to do do with framing and other construction methods - and electrical requirements is left to NEC? If so you may have place of assembly construction methods at 50 occupancy but wiring methods don't turn into "place of assembly" wiring methods until that 100 occupancy is reached.

    Nothing in the NEC says you cannot butcher an engineered structure beam, glue lam is an example, by drilling holes willy nilly. So you all think one would be okay doing it? Not in the slightest wA great example of two codes applying. Drilling those holes does not violate NEC. You still get a fail from building inspector, even if electrical inspector told him he might want to take a look at what the elecrician did to that beam.

    “But the inspector is only authorized to inspect electrical.” Okay, electrical inspector simply calls his building inspector co worker at the office, who comes down and red tags it. Now you have two irritated inspectors and the job is still a fail. Not good.

    Many inspectors are combo types, so the red tag process is even quickerCombo types do happen. If electrician drills structural beam incorrectly combo inpector puts on his structural inspector hat when citing the violation and not his NEC hat. NEC is not what was violated.

    Why the two codes have different numbers for what constitutes a place of assembly, I have no clue. But I will say that the AHJ is gonna pick which number, not the electrician/ contractor,EE.I think there is two codes that apply to two different aspects of the installation. IBC may want a 1 hour wall for a reason at only 50 occupants, NEC may want metallic wiring methods but only when there are 100 occupants or more.

    And no, there does not have to be a formal statute declaring which applies, rather it is in the absence of one, which is the case many times, that will empower the AHJ to decide.
    Again I am not familiar with IBC at all, if it applies and says something like places of assembly (and defines them as 50 or more occupants) must also comply with NEC 518 - there is something what would link the two.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I don't totally agree.

    Again I am not familiar with IBC at all, if it applies and says something like places of assembly (and defines them as 50 or more occupants) must also comply with NEC 518 - there is something what would link the two.
    The IBC uses NFPA 70 as its electrical code

    As stated it does not mater what occupant load an assembly starts at the restrictions on the wire methods are applicable once the occupant load reaches 100

    The IBC requires the design occupant load to be posted
    Last edited by david; 01-13-18 at 12:16 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I don't totally agree.

    Again I am not familiar with IBC at all, if it applies and says something like places of assembly (and defines them as 50 or more occupants) must also comply with NEC 518 - there is something what would link the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    The IBC uses NFPA 70 as its electrical code
    Yes the IBC references the NEC for electrical.

    Which basically makes the NEC a sub code of the IBC. The IBC is then under whatever admin code the jurisdiction adopts. Hierarchy guys, the NEC is low man on the totem pole.
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    The IBC uses NFPA 70 as its electrical code

    As stated it does not mater what occupant load an assembly starts at the restrictions on the wire methods are applicable once the occupant load reaches 100

    The IBC requires the design occupant load to be posted
    If it just references NFPA 70 as it's electrical code I agree.
    Wiring methods would be dictated by NFPA 70, which doesn't require anything specific until occupancy of 100 is reached.

    If IBC were to somehow say that wiring methods must comply with NEC 518 anytime IBC's "assembly" definition was met then that would superceed the NEC's occupancy of 100.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    If it just references NFPA 70 as it's electrical code I agree.
    Wiring methods would be dictated by NFPA 70, which doesn't require anything specific until occupancy of 100 is reached.

    If IBC were to somehow say that wiring methods must comply with NEC 518 anytime IBC's "assembly" definition was met then that would superceed the NEC's occupancy of 100.
    Here is an an article that explains it. It uses fire alarm as an example but the principle is the same.

    The more restrictive rules often apply.

    https://www.ecmag.com/section/system...-code-do-i-use
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

  8. #18
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    Since a lot on this site are under the 2014 NEC

    the electrical references in the IBC are pretty straight forward in applying the NFPA-70-2014

    https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/doc...-27-electrical

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynex22 View Post
    I'm looking into hanging lights in a small church that was built in 1898. I noticed another electrician recently rewired the entire church in romex, I thought it would be wired to commercial codes (MC). Is their something I'm not aware of? I tried asking the county building dept. but they don't even answer the phone. The church is located in central coast area of Ca. Should I just walk away from this project?
    Church holds over 100 people perhaps 150. Structure is mostly wood/lath and plaster inside, outside is wood siding, footing is stone. Whats left of the knob and tube is inactive. Thanks for all the input!

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynex22 View Post
    Church holds over 100 people perhaps 150. Structure is mostly wood/lath and plaster inside, outside is wood siding, footing is stone. Whats left of the knob and tube is inactive. Thanks for all the input!
    Rhetorical question:

    Was the rewire job permitted and inspected?

    You gotta talk to inspector IMO. Ambush him if needed.
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

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