'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

Status
Not open for further replies.
There's a receptacle on the market under the name BSafe which already has a thermal cutout. The Amazon price is $18.95(!).

Would a thermal cutout help when the receptacle ages and plugs are held so loosely they keep falling out?

Statistically, almost all installations are not brand new, so any code change is not going to help much for decades to come. A safety inspection legally required for every sale with mandatory corrections would catch far more. An insurance discount for inspections every 5-10 years between sales would catch even more.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
But our installation methods need to change. No need to pre-twist needs to be be removed from the instructions. In truth unless you make the connection up with your tools and visually have conformation of your splice a wire nut guarantees nothing. It is possible to push one of the conductors down further with the skirt hiding it, making poor contact that can lead to a glowing connection down the road. Also possible is having the spring act as a conductor, something its not.


Back stabbed outlets are another gripe. Those need to be outlawed. The failure rate is astronomical compared to side wired and back clamped varieties. The failures are driving up fire statistics.

I like to pretwist mine as you can visually inspect the connecting has been made and the secured by the wirenut. For the nonwinged wirenuts I have this socket that fits the wirenut in the end of the handle of my screwdriver that provides a means of getting sufficient torque to tighten the nut securely which is a real thumb saver. I have tried not to pretwist and then pulled on each conductor to assure that each are caught but it doesn't assure that a conductors have actually been secured competely.
Back stabbed devices? I won't use them for outlets but do for mst light switches. I also pigtail out my outlets with feed through circuits. Yes, here goes the use of wirenut again but then you do have to deal with the screw terminations which can fail also and having only a L-N-and EGC connected to an outlet to me is a good thing, especially with #12.
It also makes it much easier to replace an outlet. The feed through load is also carried through the wirenuted connections which I think is preferable to using the outlet as a feed through.
But, when it comes to the cost labor, is that an incentive to go with the minimum requirements to finish the job as quickly as possible= more$$$$?
Also having a "good enough for who it's for" attitude is a factor also.
 
Last edited:

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
There's a receptacle on the market under the name BSafe which already has a thermal cutout. The Amazon price is $18.95(!).

Would a thermal cutout help when the receptacle ages and plugs are held so loosely they keep falling out?

Statistically, almost all installations are not brand new, so any code change is not going to help much for decades to come. A safety inspection legally required for every sale with mandatory corrections would catch far more. An insurance discount for inspections every 5-10 years between sales would catch even more.

I think those are a knock off since they can not copy the inventor's patent.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
But our installation methods need to change. No need to pre-twist needs to be be removed from the instructions. In truth unless you make the connection up with your tools and visually have conformation of your splice a wire nut guarantees nothing. It is possible to push one of the conductors down further with the skirt hiding it, making poor contact that can lead to a glowing connection down the road. Also possible is having the spring act as a conductor, something its not.


Back stabbed outlets are another gripe. Those need to be outlawed. The failure rate is astronomical compared to side wired and back clamped varieties. The failures are driving up fire statistics.

mbrooke, I agree 100% with you (see post #89 in this thread). Yes-no need to pretwist should be removed from boxes of connectors. Its actually kind of funny when you see a non pre-twister who argues p.t.'g takes too long try interminably to jam and then twist a few solid twelves together until he gets a few twists visible in the installation-the criteria for what he believes will be be a good splice, when in reality if the schmuck would have pretwisted with his kleins he would have had both a reliable connection AND he would have been done faster.

Our installation methods need to change alright-they need to go back to where they were. Way back when Leviton came out with its Quik Wire method (which gave birth to the now notorious backstab), the old timers wouldn't hardly use them. A lot of them said it was a poor, high res connection-they simply didn't trust it. Said it would cause fires - "the crimp and taper's" suspicions have been vindicated numerous times.

Unfortunately, the side terminals( the old guys' gold standard and still the choice of professionals) eventually lost out to the strip and jab due to the perceived need to get everything done as quickly and as cheaply as possible with concern for the occupants and the electrical system only lasting the life of the warranty offered by builders. Pathetic really and a lot of issues can be blamed on this need for speed. Wire nuts are perfectly safe when the time is taken to pretwist solid wire (thus making self fusing splices vrtually unneeded) and there is nothing wrong with using cheap devices that are side wired. Another thing about the old timers I've noticed-in a lot of old installs you almost never see the old nm damaged by those thick uninsulated staples-compare that to today when the current crop ruins fresh nm with insulated staples:rant:
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I like to pretwist mine as you can visually inspect the connecting has been made and the secured by the wirenut. For the nonwinged wirenuts I have this socket that fits the wirenut in the end of the handle of my screwdriver that provides a means of getting sufficient torque to tighten the nut securely which is a real thumb saver. I have tried not to pretwist and then pulled on each conductor to assure that each are caught but it doesn't assure that a conductors have actually been secured competely.
Back stabbed devices? I won't use them for outlets but do for mst light switches. I also pigtail out my outlets with feed through circuits. Yes, here goes the use of wirenut again but then you do have to deal with the screw terminations which can fail also and having only a L-N-and EGC connected to an outlet to me is a good thing, especially with #12.
It also makes it much easier to replace an outlet. The feed through load is also carried through the wirenuted connections which I think is preferable to using the outlet as a feed through.
But, when it comes to the cost labor, is that an incentive to go with the minimum requirements to finish the job as quickly as possible= more$$$$?
Also having a "good enough for who it's for" attitude is a factor also.


Im much like you, quality trumps any code mandate.

Anyone know why they outlawed #12 for back stabs?
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
There's a receptacle on the market under the name BSafe which already has a thermal cutout. The Amazon price is $18.95(!).

Would a thermal cutout help when the receptacle ages and plugs are held so loosely they keep falling out?

Statistically, almost all installations are not brand new, so any code change is not going to help much for decades to come. A safety inspection legally required for every sale with mandatory corrections would catch far more. An insurance discount for inspections every 5-10 years between sales would catch even more.

I was thinking of something like that, an outlet with a thermal sensor. That product deserves to be evaluated.
Even canned lights have a therrmal switch in thern to respond heat should the HOers attempt to install higher wattasge bulb than the fixture is listed for.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
Im much like you, quality trumps any code mandate.

Anyone know why they outlawed #12 for back stabs?

I believe it had something to do with the following-

1) Circuits wired with 12 are put in areas that served higher draw appliances and it was determined I believe that the
spring type tension set up wasn't quite "up to par" when it came to handling these higher more prolonged loads

2) During installation, fighting the stiffer wire when tucking the device in the box sometimes resulted in a loose connection.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Would a thermal cutout help when the receptacle ages and plugs are held so loosely they keep falling out?


One problem with electrical is that homeowners and landlords think that an electrical system should last forever.

When they do decide to replace aged receptacles they think it doesn't take any knowledge at all.
The worst case I have seen is when a landlord tried to have his cleaning lady ( poor girl that didn't even speak english) change out the receptacles and switches at a rental property. This is all perfectly legal in this state.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
When they do decide to replace aged receptacles they think it doesn't take any knowledge at all.

Many times I have heard the old expression that "any idiot can wire a house" and I have observed that yes, when I see a house wired by an idiot it was obviously wired by an idiot.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Many times I have heard the old expression that "any idiot can wire a house" and I have observed that yes, when I see a house wired by an idiot it was obviously wired by an idiot.


A peron that wires houses every day can learn to do many things by rote (repetition). If they have good supervision and training in the beginning.

I have found that by training helpers that if you show a person how to properly terminate a receptacle they will be alright for a few times and then you must show them again and maybe again. As many times a necessary until the do it right every time.

You don't need to be a genius to wire a house or drive a truck or be President but it does help if you know something about what you are trying to do.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
One problem with electrical is that homeowners and landlords think that an electrical system should last forever.

When they do decide to replace aged receptacles they think it doesn't take any knowledge at all.
The worst case I have seen is when a landlord tried to have his cleaning lady ( poor girl that didn't even speak english) change out the receptacles and switches at a rental property. This is all perfectly legal in this state.
If it is one thing that I have been made well aware of is to never assume that all licensed electricials are the same. I have been continually amaised of those that actually don't understand the actual reasons as to why they are required to do what is required.
I have seen handymen who are more cvompitent that some licensed electrician that I have run across over the year. But if I was to advise someone it definitely would be to get a reputable licensed electrician.
I redid some wiring for a friend a lighting circuit with a 20at breaker feeding a out building via underground pvc with#12/2 w/ egc feeding a switch that then feed and overhead light with #14/4 w/EGC nm. The #12/2 w/grd when on to feed a barn some 75' away. For lighting. I never checked but I would venture to say that the lights there were wired with #14 nm and I would also like to guess that is also an outlet and how it is wired.
This licensed electrician who thought that a tap rule would apply I guess. I pointed this out to the owner even though not dangerous that it violated the code. It goes back to the integrity of the licensed electrician.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
A peron that wires houses every day can learn to do many things by rote (repetition). If they have good supervision and training in the beginning.

I have found that by training helpers that if you show a person how to properly terminate a receptacle they will be alright for a few times and then you must show them again and maybe again. As many times a necessary until the do it right every time.

You don't need to be a genius to wire a house or drive a truck or be President but it does help if you know something about what you are trying to do.
I'm in total agreement. But to actually understand the whys and wherefores of what is being do goes a long way in the appreciation of the importance of what is being,done and done correctly.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
:huh:

Preventing electrical fires is exactly the job of the NEC and the writers of it so I am a bit confused why you are saying that.
I interpreted him as saying that we do all we reasonably can to mitigate the risk of fire but 100.000% prevention is impossible. How many nines would you like to buy? :D
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
No, it does not and trying to stretch the truth to push your goal is exactly what we are saying the AFCI manufacturers are doing.

Interesting enough the elecrical manufactures have made tremendous strides in technology. The AFCI is certainly a case of thinking outside the box and a case of wishfull thinking and in all earnest selling the technology to UL.They certainly didn't anticipate what the real life response from the fierld woud be. I firmly believe that that anticipated therm to be greatest piece of technology but certainly appears to have been of no consequence. Is it a matter of CYA now?
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I have seen handymen who are more compitent that some licensed electricians that I have run across over the year.
I redid some wiring for a friend a lighting circuit with a 20at breaker feeding a out building via underground pvc with#12/2 w/ egc feeding a switch that then feed and overhead light with #14/4 w/EGC nm. The #12/2 w/grd when on to feed a barn some 75' away. For lighting. I never checked but I would venture to say that the lights there were wired with #14 nm and I would also like to guess that is also an outlet and how it is wired.
This licensed electrician who thought that a tap rule would apply I guess.

First off I don't know many electricians, licensed or not that don't know the size breaker required for #14 NM.

Second I don't know many handymen that are even aware of the tap rule. Most don't even own a code book.

What this guy did was wrong but probably not all that dangerous. I wouldn't do it because I know better.

I have checked out receptacles after a receptacle change-out and found the wires wrapped around the screw terminals in the wrong direction (counter-clockwise). I'm talking about every receptacle. Also a lot of loose connections. This may appear to be a small thing but this is the type of thing that can start a fire. When I tried to explain to the handyman doing this that he needed to wrap the wire around the screw terminal so that it would get tighter as he tightened the screw he got upset.

You don't need to be an electrician in this state to change out receptacles and I have no problem with that but there should be some sort of basic electrical training required.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
First off I don't know many electricians, licensed or not that don't know the size breaker required for #14 NM.

Second I don't know many handymen that are even aware of the tap rule. Most don't even own a code book.

What this guy did was wrong but probably not all that dangerous. I wouldn't do it because I know better.

I have checked out receptacles after a receptacle change-out and found the wires wrapped around the screw terminals in the wrong direction (counter-clockwise). I'm talking about every receptacle. Also a lot of loose connections. This may appear to be a small thing but this is the type of thing that can start a fire. When I tried to explain to the handyman doing this that he needed to wrap the wire around the screw terminal so that it would get tighter as he tightened the screw he got upset.

You don't need to be an electrician in this state to change out receptacles and I have no problem with that but there should be some sort of basic electrical training required.
What is so scasrry is that when a person hires an electrical he is doing so with the trust that it will be a quality and correct installation. The I get the privilege to point out the violations do be this so called licensed electrician. How is the customer to know since he is licensed a licensed electrician.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
What is so scasrry is that when a person hires an electrical he is doing so with the trust that it will be a quality and correct installation. The I get the privilege to point out the violations do be this so called licensed electrician. How is the customer to know since he is licensed a licensed electrician.

I don't know I guess it's like trying to find a good doctor. You can go with the most expensive and still not get the best.

If you get a licensed electrician there is always someone to file a complaint with. There are companies that I wouldn't recommend to anyone but they are probably still better than the average handyman because they are insured to do electrical work.

I took my van to the place that does the city's police vehicles, sounded like a good idea. It wasn't. :happysad:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top