210.8(B)(8) - 2011 NEC

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210.8(B)(8) - 2011 NEC

  • Yes, in the auto shop only.

    Votes: 16 88.9%
  • Yes, in all three shops.

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 1 5.6%

  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .
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charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
A high school renovation project includes shops for wood working, metal working, and auto repair. The Electrical Inspector is calling for GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in these three shops. He is citing 210.8(B)(8), saying that these spaces fall into the description of “garages, service bays, or similar areas.” What say you?
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
A high school renovation project includes shops for wood working, metal working, and auto repair. The Electrical Inspector is calling for GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in these three shops. He is citing 210.8(B)(8), saying that these spaces fall into the description of “garages, service bays, or similar areas.” [deleted] What say you?
I am with you on this one, since even the "service bays" implies a working relationship to cars, trucks, etc, not just a place to do work on parts.

But, except for the likelihood of nuisance trips, I would be in favor of voluntarily putting GFCI outlets, because of the high probability of mistreatment and subsequent damage to portable tool cords.

Note: I removed from my quote information that Chariie later removed from his post. :p
 
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charlie b

Moderator
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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I am willing to concede the auto repair area, but not the wood and metal shops.
I put this sentence into my original post, then thought better of it, and tried to delete it before anyone saw it. I guess I failed in that attempt. The reason for my "thought better of it" was that I didn't want to give away my own opinion, until I saw some other opinions.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
But, except for the likelihood of nuisance trips, I would be in favor of voluntarily putting GFCI outlets, because of the high probability of mistreatment and subsequent damage to portable tool cords.
Voluntarily adding things beyond code requirements is certainly worth consideration. But this school is well under construction, and this issue did not come up during the AHJ's plan review. So we don't want new requirements added at this stage. If the school district thinks adding more GFCI protection is a good idea, then the EC should get paid to do that extra work. But I would prefer clarity on whether we are looking at a design oversight or a new work scope.

 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
A high school renovation project includes shops for wood working, metal working, and auto repair. The Electrical Inspector is calling for GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in these three shops. He is citing 210.8(B)(8), saying that these spaces fall into the description of “garages, service bays, or similar areas.” What say you?

Regarding wood working and metal working the inspector is asking for something not required by the NEC.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
A high school renovation project includes shops for wood working, metal working, and auto repair. The Electrical Inspector is calling for GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in these three shops. He is citing 210.8(B)(8), saying that these spaces fall into the description of “garages, service bays, or similar areas.” What say you?

I voted auto shop only, since it was the closest answer to my thinking.

I don't know enough about the auto repair area to know if it is a garage, service bay or similar area.

It seems highly likely to me that it is a garage. It might be a service bay, but that term conjures up a very specific image in my mind and I am having a hard time seeing how a high school auto repair shop qualifies, so think that is unlikely. The similar area thing is so vague it could mean all kinds of things.

Garage. A building or portion of a building in which one or
more self-propelled vehicles can be kept for use, sale, storage,
rental, repair, exhibition, or demonstration purposes.
 

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
What code apply in your state? And what is amendments in your city?
The state in which the project is located (WY) adopted the 2014 NEC after this project was submitted for permit. That is why I put "2011 NEC" in the title of this thread. There are no local amendments that impact the question at hand.

 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I don't know enough about the auto repair area to know if it is a garage, service bay or similar area.
At first, I had the same question. But then I read the definition of "garage" in Article 100, and now believe that the auto repair area does meet that definition.

There is a change to article 210.8(B)(8) in the 2014 NEC that, in my opinion, clarifies the meaning of "or similar areas" in this context. It removed mention of portable tools and lights, and added an exception for "vehicle exhibition halls and showrooms." That tells me that sub paragraph (8) is all about cars, and that the "or similar areas" cannot be applied to the other two shop areas.

 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
I have had more debates with inspectors over this section of the NEC than any other. I voted auto shop only for the same reason most everyone else did.

I had one inspector argue that because the floor was concrete, GFCI protection of receptacles were required.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
I have had more debates with inspectors over this section of the NEC than any other. I voted auto shop only for the same reason most everyone else did.

I had one inspector argue that because the floor was concrete, GFCI protection of receptacles were required.

Did you do work in Wrentham MA, that towns inspector felt that way. :D

I think that is a common misconception that any area with a concrete floor requires GFCI protection. I hear many electricians and inspectors stating that.

Chris
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I think that is a common misconception that any area with a concrete floor requires GFCI protection. I hear many electricians and inspectors stating that.

Chris


I agree and probably not a bad idea but it just isn't a code req. :thumbsup:
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I don't see it as a code requirement, but I think it should be a design requirement for all of the shop and lab receptacles in a high school.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
I am voting all 3. IMO The auto shop should be as a commercial garage. The wood shop is a class 2 location, all 3 will have portable tools and I would be surprised if any of these locations are out of the reach of OSHA.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
The chief electrical inspector for the state of WY is a regular here, perhaps he will chime in. :)

With the way it is written, I wouldn't fight it myself.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
If it is all those tools are going to have to be explosion proof.

This is from NFPA 664
Standard for the Prevention of Fires and Explosions in Wood Processingand Woodworking Facilities

"7.3.2* Portions of the facility where dust accumulations occur
or where suspensions of wood dust in air could occur shall be
equipped with electrical systems and equipment per Article
502 or 503 of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code."


OSHA applies to employees not students, the teachers might be covered if they are not government employees
Correct. Teachers are people too :happyyes:.
 
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