apartment complex

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MBLES

Senior Member
we were asked to bid a project where they want us to replace switches receptacles gfci and light fixtures. i know i have seen a previous post
on this forum i just figure time has changes and someone has seen or figured out how to price these types of jobs.
 

MBLES

Senior Member
I would do a material take off and guesstimate the time to do the work on one unit.

we normally do commercial and dont use 210 much. if we are installing gfci in bathrooms and kitchen and replacing receptacles. do we now need to install afci breakers.?? not sure how that works now can you point me to a article.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Depends on code cycle you are under and how the authority having jurisdiction sees it.

Here is the 2014

406.4(D)(4)

(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a
receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires
arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified
elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this
outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuitinterrupter
receptacle
(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch-circuit
type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type
arc-fault circuit-interrupter type circuit breaker
This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.
 

MBLES

Senior Member
Depends on code cycle you are under and how the authority having jurisdiction sees it.

Here is the 2014

so basically YES!. if I replace a receptacle it needs to be protected by a breaker or a receptacle that is AFCI first in the circuit. right??
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
what about bath room and kitchen where gfci is requierd?

Same is true there.. Also these article are posted in your other thread

406.4(D)(3) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters. Ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided
where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are
required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.
Exception: Where replacement of the receptacle type is
impracticable, such as where the outlet box size will not
permit the installation of the GFCI receptacle, the receptacle
shall be permitted to be replaced with a new receptacle
of the existing type, where GFCI protection is provided
and the receptacle is marked “GFCI protected” and
“no equipment ground,” in accordance with 406.4(D)(2)
(a), (b), or (c).
 

MBLES

Senior Member
That has been required for some time now to install GFCI protection where otherwise needed in current codes.


Sorry. i didnt post qiestion correctly. this is a existing dwelling and the custoner wants to install new receptacles and install gfci in kitchen and bath where gfci is required. A AFCI breaker is now required PLUS GFCI on small appliance? The bathroom has laundry room and she wants to replace receptacles in laundry and install GFCI. Basically if i replace any receptacle it needs to be AFCI brealer and GFCI where required just to replace receptacles in all room?? it seems excessive but what you gonna do!!
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Sorry. i didnt post qiestion correctly. this is a existing dwelling and the custoner wants to install new receptacles and install gfci in kitchen and bath where gfci is required. A AFCI breaker is now required PLUS GFCI on small appliance? The bathroom has laundry room and she wants to replace receptacles in laundry and install GFCI. Basically if i replace any receptacle it needs to be AFCI brealer and GFCI where required just to replace receptacles in all room?? it seems excessive but what you gonna do!!

It is excessive AND I would bet most people don't do it unless they are getting an inspection.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Sorry. i didnt post qiestion correctly. this is a existing dwelling and the custoner wants to install new receptacles and install gfci in kitchen and bath where gfci is required. A AFCI breaker is now required PLUS GFCI on small appliance? The bathroom has laundry room and she wants to replace receptacles in laundry and install GFCI. Basically if i replace any receptacle it needs to be AFCI brealer and GFCI where required just to replace receptacles in all room?? it seems excessive but what you gonna do!!

It is excessive AND I would bet most people don't do it unless they are getting an inspection.

Agreed It sounds excessive. What I would do is install GFCI's kitchen & baths, forget AFCI


The bad thing is that on a job like this they will want a bid saying what you are going to do and an invoice also saying what was done and a warranty.

That's leaving a pretty nice paper trail of doing non-compliant work.

On a house where you change out one receptacle it's easy to just say trouble shoot and repair and don't add a charge for a replaced receptacle (materials) and not really leave a paper trail.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Dennis ... Best hurry and get the AFCI's deleted from the NEC .

More and more uninspected work is going to happen as a result of the AFCI's .




Don

Here you don't have to be an electrician nor get an inspection to change out receptacles.

Some hanymen don't even use T/R receptacles.

The only time that I can get a job changing out receptacles is on section eight housing where they require a licensed electrician.
 

MBLES

Senior Member
Here you don't have to be an electrician nor get an inspection to change out receptacles.

Some hanymen don't even use T/R receptacles.

The only time that I can get a job changing out receptacles is on section eight housing where they require a licensed electrician.


i dont want to keep beating a dead horse here! If I replace receptacles for any reason and anywhere AFCI is required I need to install the new AFCI with the required GFCI where required.? These apartments are under rehab. they want to replace receptacles and switches so basically I would need to install AFCI everywhere AFCI is needed? i plan on calling the city Monday and find out which NEC they are follosing.

There is another city doing the same but only following the 2008. The 2014 is driving me nuts.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
i dont want to keep beating a dead horse here! If I replace receptacles for any reason and anywhere AFCI is required I need to install the new AFCI with the required GFCI where required.? These apartments are under rehab. they want to replace receptacles and switches so basically I would need to install AFCI everywhere AFCI is needed? i plan on calling the city Monday and find out which NEC they are follosing.

There is another city doing the same but only following the 2008. The 2014 is driving me nuts.
All we can really tell you is what the NEC says, or what local codes are if someone happens to know them in the area in question.

Your decision to not install afci if otherwise required is not our decision to make, we can warn you of some scenarios that could bite you back though if you didn't do that.

If you are bidding the job and other bidders decide to not comply with code - you probably do not get the job as you will have more cost involved and a higher bid. If you decide to bid with a non compliant installation - you leave yourself open to future potential liabilities, which can include future warranty issues since the AFCI technology is prone to having issues as well as property damage, injury, loss of life litigation should there be a fire and someone brings up the missing AFCI's in the investigation.

With my mixed feelings on AFCI and whether or not they should be required, I have made up my mind I no longer like to do residential work, I used to like residential work, and maybe would consider doing it full time someday, but definitely not as the contractor, let someone else worry about all the lost time and other expenses that can come with this game.
 

MBLES

Senior Member
All we can really tell you is what the NEC says, or what local codes are if someone happens to know them in the area in question.

Your decision to not install afci if otherwise required is not our decision to make, we can warn you of some scenarios that could bite you back though if you didn't do that.

If you are bidding the job and other bidders decide to not comply with code - you probably do not get the job as you will have more cost involved and a higher bid. If you decide to bid with a non compliant installation - you leave yourself open to future potential liabilities, which can include future warranty issues since the AFCI technology is prone to having issues as well as property damage, injury, loss of life litigation should there be a fire and someone brings up the missing AFCI's in the investigation.

With my mixed feelings on AFCI and whether or not they should be required, I have made up my mind I no longer like to do residential work, I used to like residential work, and maybe would consider doing it full time someday, but definitely not as the contractor, let someone else worry about all the lost time and other expenses that can come with this game.


i wasnt trying to get away with anything on electrical i was just gather thougts before the job even start. the good news we found out the city we thought the property was on is actually a city that isnt going to require any new 2014 for replacing receptacles or switches. this is a big relief for the owner. thank for all the helpful advise.
 
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