laundry room arc fault

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mannyb

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrician
Sorry for posting about arc fault AGAIN! but let say the gfci going to laundry room is replaced so now it needs to be AFCI and GFCI. The panel is filled with 1/2 breakers so you have no room for AFCI breaker. Could you cut in a new out next to gfci and install afci recptacle? just asking. this is kinda a problem i am trying to solve at an Apartment complex we are trying to remodel. there isnt any room for the standard 3/4 because its filled with 1/4'' breakers. we are trying everything not to replace panels.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Cut in Double-gang box with standard duplex protected by blank-face GFCI, in stock at big orange. If inspector red tags for missing AFCI, then replace standard duplex with 15A AFCI receptacle, also in stock at big orange.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Cut in Double-gang box with standard duplex protected by blank-face GFCI, in stock at big orange. If inspector red tags for missing AFCI, then replace standard duplex with 15A AFCI receptacle, also in stock at big orange.

Unless you can meet the requirements of 210.12 (A) exc #1 then you can not do this.

Why do you need a AFCI for the laundry area? local requirement? Are you on 2014 NEC?
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Grasshopper, you quote 210.12(A) for new construction, wrong code.
Look at 210.12(B) and 406.4(D)(4)

If OP is not from the land of fruits & nuts, he could be on 2014 code cycle, which requires laundry AFCI, baring local exceptions.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Grasshopper, you quote 210.12(A) for new construction, wrong code.
Look at 210.12(B) and 406.4(D)(4)

If OP is not from the land of fruits & nuts, he could be on 2014 code cycle, which requires laundry AFCI, baring local exceptions.

I missed that section.

Get rid of the grasshopper, this is not "Electrician talk"
 

mannyb

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrician
Cut in Double-gang box with standard duplex protected by blank-face GFCI, in stock at big orange. If inspector red tags for missing AFCI, then replace standard duplex with 15A AFCI receptacle, also in stock at big orange.

i was thinking of double gang for J box and putting afci and gfci in same box. The only other way is to replace subpanel with a 20 space instead of 12 space.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
. . . let say the gfci going to laundry room is replaced so now it needs to be AFCI and GFCI. The panel is filled with 1/2 breakers so you have no room for AFCI breaker. Could you cut in a new out next to gfci and install afci recptacle?

i was thinking of double gang for J box and putting afci and gfci in same box. The only other way is to replace subpanel with a 20 space instead of 12 space.
The problem with putting an AFCI receptacle upstream from the GFCI receptacle at the Laundry location is that the receptacles in the AFCI receptacle are not GFCI protected, which is an old 210.8 requirement. Reverse the order, and you still have a problem of no AFCI protection on the receptacles in the GFCI.

With a little hunting, you should be able to get a blank face AFCI at your supplier, or on the internet, and that solves all the pieces of the Code. Place the blank face Outlet Branch Circuit AFCI device upsteam from the GFCI receptacle, and the Laundry machines will be both AFCI and GFCI protected, and you won't have to do a panel upgrade.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
With a little hunting, you should be able to get a blank face AFCI at your supplier, or on the internet, and that solves all the pieces of the Code. Place the blank face Outlet Branch Circuit AFCI device upsteam from the GFCI receptacle, and the Laundry machines will be both AFCI and GFCI protected, and you won't have to do a panel upgrade.
Or you could use a blank face GFCI and an AFCI receptacle, unless you consider that to be two outlets, in which case the blank face GFCI wouldn't be AFCI protected.

So is a blank-face device an outlet? And if it is, when you put it with a receptacle into a double gang box, do you have two different outlets, or just one?

I don't want to rehash all of this, I'm just pointing out that the lack of clarity in the definition of outlet causes trouble here.

Cheers, Wayne
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Sorry for posting about arc fault AGAIN! but let say the gfci going to laundry room is replaced so now it needs to be AFCI and GFCI.
Why ? Is the laundry in a new extension to the original structure ? IMHO, unless there is a change to the footprint or elevation of the structure and you're relocating the laundry to that area you would have to do this. Otherwise you should be grandfathered in

The panel is filled with 1/2 breakers so you have no room for AFCI breaker. Could you cut in a new out next to gfci and install afci recptacle? just asking. this is kinda a problem i am trying to solve at an Apartment complex we are trying to remodel. there isnt any room for the standard 3/4 because its filled with 1/4'' breakers. we are trying everything not to replace panels.
Be careful with this method. Re-read ALL of section 210.12. For AFCI the wiring between the over-current device and an AFCI receptacle requires specific wiring methods.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Sorry for posting about arc fault AGAIN! but let say the gfci going to laundry room is replaced so now it needs to be AFCI and GFCI.

Why ? Is the laundry in a new extension to the original structure ?

Why? "Let's say" : The electronics in the GFCI have died and no longer work.

When Manny says "let say", I hear a hypothetical inquiry, and when he says "the gfci going to the laundry room is replaced" I interpret the most likely possible meaning that he is asking about, is a GFCI receptacle mounted at the Laundry Receptacle Outlet, especially because he goes on to say there are no full size spaces in the circuit breaker panel. (GFCI breakers are full size).

If the local authority will not accept applying 2014 NEC 210.12(B) Exception to 406.4(D)(4), and only allows replacement of a device as in 210.12(B), then all that needs to happen is to install the OBC AFCI at the first outlet of the existing branch circuit, which, in the case of this laundry room, should be the very outlet we are talking about. There is no requirement in 210.12(B) to also replace the existing homerun wiring for a receptacle device replacement. Because 210.8 requires any laundry receptacle to be GFCI protected, the OBC AFCI can't have receptacles, and must be upstream from the new replacement GFCI receptacle, which is why I recommend finding the available blank face OBC AFCI and installing it side by side the GFCI receptacle.

As Wayne Whitney points out, there is debate whether an blank face OBC AFCI might be considered an Outlet. Even if the AHJ considers it an Outlet, it, the blank face OBC AFCI, is NOT a receptacle, so there is no complication from 210.8, and the assembly, in my opinion, works, satisfying the 2014 NEC.
 

MBLES

Senior Member
Why? "Let's say" : The electronics in the GFCI have died and no longer work.

When Manny says "let say", I hear a hypothetical inquiry, and when he says "the gfci going to the laundry room is replaced" I interpret the most likely possible meaning that he is asking about, is a GFCI receptacle mounted at the Laundry Receptacle Outlet, especially because he goes on to say there are no full size spaces in the circuit breaker panel. (GFCI breakers are full size).

If the local authority will not accept applying 2014 NEC 210.12(B) Exception to 406.4(D)(4), and only allows replacement of a device as in 210.12(B), then all that needs to happen is to install the OBC AFCI at the first outlet of the existing branch circuit, which, in the case of this laundry room, should be the very outlet we are talking about. There is no requirement in 210.12(B) to also replace the existing homerun wiring for a receptacle device replacement. Because 210.8 requires any laundry receptacle to be GFCI protected, the OBC AFCI can't have receptacles, and must be upstream from the new replacement GFCI receptacle, which is why I recommend finding the available blank face OBC AFCI and installing it side by side the GFCI receptacle.

As Wayne Whitney points out, there is debate whether an blank face OBC AFCI might be considered an Outlet. Even if the AHJ considers it an Outlet, it, the blank face OBC AFCI, is NOT a receptacle, so there is no complication from 210.8, and the assembly, in my opinion, works, satisfying the 2014 NEC.


here is my question. If the GFCI goes out in a exisitng laundry room, do i need to install the AFCI at panel? then replace GFCI. the new 2014 code requires I install a AFCI breaker of receptacle when replacing a device. NOW there is no room in the panel for a AFCI because panel is to small and not enough space. does putting a 2 gang j box with blank AFCI first then gfci down stream a good idea? is my question. The owners are trying not to replace all breaker panels if we can still follow the code.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
the new 2014 code requires I install a AFCI breaker of receptacle when replacing a device.

How do you read 2014 NEC 210.12 to not allow 210.12(B)(2) to apply in the OP's situation?

2014 NEC
210.12(B)(2)
Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications -- Dwelling Units


In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
How do you read 2014 NEC 210.12 to not allow 210.12(B)(2) to apply in the OP's situation?

Is a receptacle 'wiring'?

2014 NEC
210.12(B)(2)
Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications -- Dwelling Units


In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Is a receptacle 'wiring'?

2014 NEC
210.12(B)(2)
Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications -- Dwelling Units


In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.
Well, I believe the term in the passage is a three word term, "branch-circuit wiring", but, either way, show a legally binding definition.

I will quote the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) which includes "devices".
 

MBLES

Senior Member
Well, I believe the term in the passage is a three word term, "branch-circuit wiring", but, either way, show a legally binding definition.

I will quote the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) which includes "devices".


i agree with you AL, BUT im not gonna get away with the AHJ. Im trying to figure out if my idea would work or have a better Idea??
 

MBLES

Senior Member
How do you read 2014 NEC 210.12 to not allow 210.12(B)(2) to apply in the OP's situation?


i understand, about putting AFCI receptacle first then gfci receptacle, Im just checking to see who has different ideas.
 
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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Well, I believe the term in the passage is a three word term, "branch-circuit wiring", but, either way, show a legally binding definition.

I will quote the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) which includes "devices".

And I would argue that Article 100 is defining an entire system, where 210.12 only addresses the wiring within that system.

I guess it would be an AHJ call, but I don't think we have to AFCI protect a bedroom circuit just because a broken receptacle was replaced like we do with GFCI receptacles which is discussed somewhere in 406.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
. . . I don't think we have to AFCI protect a bedroom circuit just because a broken receptacle was replaced. . .
I agree.

However, it sounds like MBLES has an authority having jurisdiction that is saying something else.
 
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