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Thread: GFI Requirement?

  1. #71
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    “Implied intent” is not enforceable.
    Stained concrete floors in finished basements are starting to catch on around here. GFCI is not required.

    Would it be a good idea...meh maybe.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    Again presence of concrete floor, even if on/below grade is not a determining factor of whether GFCI protection is required. Many situations mentioned in 210.8 the need GFCI protection are areas that typically have on/below grade concrete floors though, but the determination we use to decide if we must supply GFCI doesn't include asking if there is a concrete floor - we look to see if we have conditions mentioned in 210.8. NEC code making members have likely considered the dangers of a conductive floor when making the rules we do have, but still have so far given us specific situations where GFCI is needed and no rule that says anytime there is a conductive floor we need GFCI.

    Until OP gives us a details that include situations that require GFCI - no GFCI is required. Even a room that is "finished" in a basement but has bare concrete floor doesn't require GFCI. If you build on a room similar to what OP described and make it your laundry room, GFCI would only be required within six feet of any sink you may have.
    What is a habitable room as defined by NEC? You won't find it in Art 100.
    What is the intent of 210.8?




    .

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesco View Post
    What is a habitable room as defined by NEC? You won't find it in Art 100.
    What is the intent of 210.8?




    .
    I agree habitable room isn't defined by NEC. Habitable isn't a term used in 210.8, it does appear elsewhere in NEC and can trigger some other requirements like 210.70(A)(1).

    210.8 is nothing more then the general requirements for GFCI protection - mostly just for 15/20 amp 125 volt general use receptacles, though they have slipped boat hoists and dishwashers in there. Specific GFCI requirements are scattered out among the applications they apply to - swimming pools is one that commonly has GFCI rules above and beyond the general rules of 210.8.

    "Dog grooming room" doesn't appear in 210.8. Conditions that one may encounter in said dog grooming room may kick in some of the 210.8 GFCI requirements though.

    If one has a small salon attached to their house (I've seen this a few times, though they were "for profit" and probably could be called non dwelling areas) it could be in many ways similar to the dog grooming room. In fact several years ago GFCI wasn't exactly needed near the sink(s) though many put them there anyway. But in comparison to the dog grooming - one could have a wash area that is just a tub/shower like place in just one small area - that doesn't make the entire space an indoor wet location and GFCI would only be required in the area that is deemed to be an indoor wet location - though that term isn't used in the 210.8(A) section for dwellings(OP said not a business).
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I agree habitable room isn't defined by NEC. Habitable isn't a term used in 210.8, it does appear elsewhere in NEC and can trigger some other requirements like 210.70(A)(1).

    210.8 is nothing more then the general requirements for GFCI protection - mostly just for 15/20 amp 125 volt general use receptacles, though they have slipped boat hoists and dishwashers in there. Specific GFCI requirements are scattered out among the applications they apply to - swimming pools is one that commonly has GFCI rules above and beyond the general rules of 210.8.

    "Dog grooming room" doesn't appear in 210.8. Conditions that one may encounter in said dog grooming room may kick in some of the 210.8 GFCI requirements though.

    If one has a small salon attached to their house (I've seen this a few times, though they were "for profit" and probably could be called non dwelling areas) it could be in many ways similar to the dog grooming room. In fact several years ago GFCI wasn't exactly needed near the sink(s) though many put them there anyway. But in comparison to the dog grooming - one could have a wash area that is just a tub/shower like place in just one small area - that doesn't make the entire space an indoor wet location and GFCI would only be required in the area that is deemed to be an indoor wet location - though that term isn't used in the 210.8(A) section for dwellings(OP said not a business).

    I agree habitable room isn't defined by NEC. Habitable isn't a term used in 210.8,
    Sure it is. "not intended as habitable rooms"
    Do you classify a dog grooming room as a habitable area, room?

    210.8(A)(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade leveland limited to storage areas, work areas and areas as similar use.

    Dog grooming too. "work areas and areas as similar use."



    .

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesco View Post
    Sure it is. "not intended as habitable rooms"
    Do you classify a dog grooming room as a habitable area, room?

    210.8(A)(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade leveland limited to storage areas, work areas and areas as similar use.

    Dog grooming too. "work areas and areas as similar use."



    .
    I understand the OP has a room added onto a dwelling which has a concrete floor that is on grade. 210.8(A)(2) does not apply to it as it is not a garage or an accessory building. We do know the owner intends to use the space as a dog grooming room for their own use and not as a business.

    It is also not an an unfinished basement as it is not below or even partially below grade.

    For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.

    There is also not enough information to state that this is a room that is subject to any particular part of 210.52 or even whether AFCI protection is required.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.
    Amen.


    Jap>

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I understand the OP has a room added onto a dwelling which has a concrete floor that is on grade. 210.8(A)(2) does not apply to it as it is not a garage or an accessory building. We do know the owner intends to use the space as a dog grooming room for their own use and not as a business.

    It is also not an an unfinished basement as it is not below or even partially below grade.

    For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.

    There is also not enough information to state that this is a room that is subject to any particular part of 210.52 or even whether AFCI protection is required.
    .

    210.8(A)(2) does not apply to it as it is not a garage or an accessory building. We do know the owner intends to use the space as a dog grooming room for their own use and not as a business.
    Lol, make up your mind.

    Post 27
    Kwired said:
    From 210.8(A)(2):"Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use"

    Seems most would call this an area covered by this section.
    Odd, if you were not among the, most would call this an area covered by this section, why didn't you say then #(2) did not apply?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.
    The OP, I believe, will not be a participating any further in this thread. I think he pretty much made that quite clear. He also made clear he would install a duplex GFCI recept and feed the rest of the outlets from it. Smart move in my opinion, required or not.

    If I get a chance this week I will call the LA Inspection Dept and ask an inspector if GFCI protection is required for the room. I will use the same info as given in the OPs original posted message.

    >>>>

    Correction:

    I read a post where 210.8(B) (5) & (6) were cited. (Post #23)
    Others posted in response to the use of #(5) and some to using #(6) for requiring GFCI protection.

    I entered the discussion at post #54

    I read 210.8(A)(2) and found myself agreeing with Kwired, post #27.
    I wrongly used #(6) Indoor Wet Locations.
    #(6) is part of 210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
    I am using 2017 NEC now and jumped from 210.8(A)(2) side of the page to the right hand side of the page and totally missed (B) at the bottom of the page. My bad....

    .
    Last edited by Jamesco; 03-11-18 at 09:43 PM.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesco View Post
    .



    Lol, make up your mind.

    Post 27
    Kwired said:

    Odd, if you were not among the, most would call this an area covered by this section, why didn't you say then #(2) did not apply?


    The OP, I believe, will not be a participating any further in this thread. I think he pretty much made that quite clear. He also made clear he would install a duplex GFCI recept and feed the rest of the outlets from it. Smart move in my opinion, required or not.

    If I get a chance this week I will call the LA Inspection Dept and ask an inspector if GFCI protection is required for the room. I will use the same info as given in the OPs original posted message.

    >>>>

    Correction:

    I read a post where 210.8(B) (5) & (6) were cited. (Post #23)
    Others posted in response to the use of #(5) and some to using #(6) for requiring GFCI protection.

    I entered the discussion at post #54

    I read 210.8(A)(2) and found myself agreeing with Kwired, post #27.
    I wrongly used #(6) Indoor Wet Locations.
    #(6) is part of 210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
    I am using 2017 NEC now and jumped from 210.8(A)(2) side of the page to the right hand side of the page and totally missed (B) at the bottom of the page. My bad....

    .
    Sorry if there was any inconsistency. Post 27 was about 50 posts ago, I don't know what was going on there then and did not go back to see either. I could have just plain been wrong about something, taken something in the wrong way or who knows what.

    I'm about done with this thread myself I think we have beaten the dead horse enough.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  9. #79
    Join Date
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    [QUOTE=Jamesco;1902531]I am using 2017 NEC now and jumped /QUOTE]

    If you look back you'll noticed you jumped on a lot of folks in this thread.

    It may be a good idea to install GFI protection whether it was needed or not, but, whether it was required or not base solely on the information we had was what the discussion was about.

    You jumped on me somewhere around post 54 and told me to keep quiet until Cowboy chimed back in so you could jump on him before jumping on K-wired in the last post.

    JAP>

  10. #80
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    OP seems to be satisfied (and gone).
    So let's end this before anymore "jumping" takes place.
    If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time!

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