new title 24 requirements effective 01-01-14 in calif.......

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Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
That would be your choice to decide, you are the OP/author.

I will if that is your desire.

i was mistaken, let it run, seems folks still have something to say about it.
it's a pretty good thread, even tho it runs amok every so often.

compliance, as i said, is still a bit spotty. that'll change. there's a pretty
simple method of getting 100% compliance without involving local AHJ's
in the workflow. i'm guessing they won't implement it until they have a
larger group of cert. technicians. 100% compliance would pretty much
bury the people doing the certs at this time, from what i've seen.

as i said, what i suspect will happen, is that permits pulled that don't have a recorded
approval on file will get a notice sent to the contractor of record, to provide
the certificate, or face suspension of their state contractors license.

i mentioned it elsewhere, but light show west is gonna be in LA shortly. it
would REALLY be in your best interest to attend if you are active in this stuff.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Kind of a no brainer as all projects need to be registered now using only the AT providers electronic forms. No more use of forms printed from the CEC website. Very difficult to Bs compliance.

Our industry did it to ourselves.

yeah, it's a self inflicted wound.
most things are.

something to keep in mind that i discovered a week or so
ago, was that there were some certifications registered under my
license number that i did not perform. they didn't show up viewing
my listings on the calctp portal, but they were visible to one of the
administrators when we were on the phone together looking at
the admin side of the system. seemed to be a system glitch.

i keep full documentation, in hard copy, of every cert i perform.
digital as well. seems like a good idea.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
yeah, it's a self inflicted wound.
most things are.

something to keep in mind that i discovered a week or so
ago, was that there were some certifications registered under my
license number that i did not perform. they didn't show up viewing
my listings on the calctp portal, but they were visible to one of the
administrators when we were on the phone together looking at
the admin side of the system. seemed to be a system glitch.

i keep full documentation, in hard copy, of every cert i perform.
digital as well. seems like a good idea.

We're those on paper forms? I had wondered if people would steal numbers. Could that be the case?

I thought maybe I would be a T24 consultant after I retired. Sorry, I don't need that nightmare. I'd rather be an idiot wearing an orange apron.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
We're those on paper forms? I had wondered if people would steal numbers. Could that be the case?

I thought maybe I would be a T24 consultant after I retired. Sorry, I don't need that nightmare. I'd rather be an idiot wearing an orange apron.

paper forms were phased out. there was some overlap, but a letter was sent out
to all the inspection departments saying not to accept the old forms anymore.

people could of course forge the forms. and more than a few have done
so, i'm guessing. half the time, the inspectors wouldn't know the difference.
perhaps wouldn't care.

won't matter. when the audit rolls, that job still hasn't been entered in the book
of life, and will be cast into the outer darkness. nobody will even know there was
a forged form, most likely. however, the building owner, and the city will most likely
have a copy of the phony form, and if it surfaces, then it's perjury, and forgery,
all attached to your state license. how fun. wonder how that will turn out...

there is a learning curve on all this stuff. i did a cert last week, at a shopping center.
it's a new center, just opening up. nothings open yet. according to the guys on the
job i did, the inspector is adamant on the cert. no cert, no final.

so after i got the cert done, i walked from shop to shop, passing out business cards,
just asking if they had anyone to do their cert. the replies fell into three categories:

we need that here? really? give me your card.
we don't need that here. the developer said so.
we have a cal green thing on the prints, so we don't need that.

cal green is not a substitute either for T24:2013, or LEED. separate deal. :weeping:

i smiled, nodded, and handed out cards. we shall see who calls.
hope they wait a bit. i'm slammed for the next two weeks.
 

five.five-six

Senior Member
Location
california
So, can I just sub out the certification of the building or do I have to get certified and cert the building myself?


BTW, holy crap, that watt stopper stuff is pricey
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
So, can I just sub out the certification of the building or do I have to get certified and cert the building myself?


BTW, holy crap, that watt stopper stuff is pricey

my understanding is you hire someone performing this work. You can be certified provided you meet the prerequisite qualifications.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
So, can I just sub out the certification of the building or do I have to get certified and cert the building myself?


BTW, holy crap, that watt stopper stuff is pricey

sub it out if you like. most people do. they exclude the certification from their bid,
and then it's just an extra at the end.

the cert is somewhat of a PITA to get, and you have a three year audit
window after the cert is filed for them to audit you. you pay for their audit.

take a deep breath... watt stopper generally is the cheapest of the big three.....
watt stopper, lutron, and then nLight.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
my understanding is you hire someone performing this work. You can be certified provided you meet the prerequisite qualifications.


you can't hire an acceptance technician directly, unless you are a calctp registered contractor.

if you aren't one of those, and most aren't, you have to hire another C-10 who is registered,
and who has an acceptance tech working for him.

basic rates for small occupancies start at around $1,500 and go up pretty quickly from there.
in the bay area, i've seen rates of $4,500 for a 2,500 sq ft. retail space. but thats the bay,
and most everything is more expensive there.

and there is the gouge factor.
 
the cert is somewhat of a PITA to get, and you have a three year audit
window after the cert is filed for them to audit you. you pay for their audit.

take a deep breath... watt stopper generally is the cheapest of the big three.....
watt stopper, lutron, and then nLight.

Where did you get 3 years for a audit?

48 hours notification from the time you submit your electronic forms is what I heard.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Let's ask Fullthrotl to weigh in on that since he is both a certified tech and a certified contractor.
I suspect that he has read all the fine print.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Let's ask Fullthrotl to weigh in on that since he is both a certified tech and a certified contractor.
I suspect that he has read all the fine print.

actually, i spoke with an auditor today. we chatted for about ten minutes.
the auditor was very helpful.

when they do a paperwork audit, they make sure the paperwork is done correctly.
this may entail a phone conversation, or whatever they need to verify it's been done
correctly.

they bill you for it afterwards.

they hit a percentage of jobs, randomly picked. it's an automated letter. goes out right after
you submit package on the server. mine was about ten minutes after i pushed the
"submit package" button.

assuming they find everything in order, that's it till the next time. if something is
not in order, they look at another one similar from you. if *it's* not in order, they
keep looking, and can audit every one you have ever done, if they feel it's necessary.

field audits are similar, but as the auditor i spoke with does not do field audits, she
could not speak to specifics. she did say that she would ask, and if it was substantially
different, would email me with the facts.

so i'm guessing that field audits work the same, but cost more. i'll let you know when i
get one of those what it involves.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
So your impression is that for both paper and field audits the *first* audit will always be relatively immediate. But if you screw up they can both end up going back up to two(?) years and could go up to 100%, rather than capping it at 20%?
That's harsh!
:)
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
So your impression is that for both paper and field audits the *first* audit will always be relatively immediate. But if you screw up they can both end up going back up to two(?) years and could go up to 100%, rather than capping it at 20%?
That's harsh!
:)

three years is my understanding. my thought is, they will audit immediately, so
that the "it was fine when i inspected it" defense doesn't allow for poor certifications.
it's hard to say that, when you certified it tuesday, and they audit it wed. afternoon.

if they have doubts, my thought is they will keep auditing until they remove all doubt,
one way or the other. easiest way to avoid this is to follow the rules, and document
your work well.

my understanding is they are going to sample between 10% and 12% of all jobs.
half paperwork, half field audit. this came from the office administrator, and she's
probably a pretty good source of information.

this week has just been nuts for work. started monday at 3 am, been to fresno,
san jose, modesto, mojave, lancaster, irwindale, and northridge.

time for bed. up at 3am, need to be in santa cruz at 8 am.

poor enterprise rent a car. they rented me a full size car, for $115 a week, unlimited milage.
i don't think they really know what "unlimited" means. it's gonna top 3k miles. we are only at
wed. night.

4 days to go. it seems to be the busy season right now. i didn't even know i was going to santa
cruz tomorrow until i woke up from my nap at 5:30 pm. got the phone call, set up the paperwork,
ready to rock. just like watching a drunk run thru traffic on the freeway......

"shut up and drive" seems to be the operative thought at the moment, right after "shut up and sleep."

music to drive by.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwqMKf7r7Xg
 
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Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician Semi-retired
As much as you are being paid, you ought to hire a driver, then you could nap or do paper work during the drive.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
As much as you are being paid, you ought to hire a driver, then you could nap or do paper work during the drive.

i got up yesterday morning at 2:30 am, and went to bed this morning at 1:30 am.
all of that time was either in the car, or on a jobsite. who could you hire who'd
do that that isn't crazy enough to give you serious reservations about riding in the
car with them?
 
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