GFCI not recommended

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jumper

Senior Member
Not for the GFCI protection regarding refrigerators and dishwashers. However the evidence submitted to the NFPA appeared to be very weak with no direct proof or correlation. I do find it interesting though that the majority of what gets accepted comes from NEMA or manufacturing reps.

For example people submitted proposals in verbiage changes regarding wire but it was denied. As soon is NEMA says lets change rubber to thermo-plastic to reflect the times it gets done.

So in short, you have done nothing but you want the rules to change.:?
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink can trip a GFCI, regardless of sink bonding, unless the overload trips first.
Regardless of sink bonding, other grounding paths / bare feet on floor / hand on faucet / can trip the GFCI
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know how 2 wire and 3 wire systems work in relation to GFCIs and so does Dennis. This place is absolutely insane.

A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink with no ground path will not trip a GFCI. A 3 wire appliance with an intact EGC back to the panel will trip a GFCI. If the sink itself has a ground path it will trip the GFCI regardless of it being 2 wire or 3 wire.

(IMO) GFCI is not put there to trip because a two wire corded appliance is dropped into the sink, it is put there so that if said appliance drops into the sink, and maybe energizes the water in the sink, it will protect the person that happens to reach into the sink to retrieve it that may be standing barefoot on a grounded/partially grounded floor or in contact somehow with something that is grounded. It doesn't have to trip, it doesn't even have to trip if there is a three wire cord though it is much more likely to then a two wire cord, it is there to protect people from the potential hazards that are present in such a situation.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink can trip a GFCI, regardless of sink bonding, unless the overload trips first.
Regardless of sink bonding, other grounding paths / bare feet on floor / hand on faucet / can trip the GFCI

I know, but assume the sink is floating relative to ground every way possible.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
(IMO) GFCI is not put there to trip because a two wire corded appliance is dropped into the sink, it is put there so that if said appliance drops into the sink, and maybe energizes the water in the sink, it will protect the person that happens to reach into the sink to retrieve it that may be standing barefoot on a grounded/partially grounded floor or in contact somehow with something that is grounded. It doesn't have to trip, it doesn't even have to trip if there is a three wire cord though it is much more likely to then a two wire cord, it is there to protect people from the potential hazards that are present in such a situation.

I agree and this is the way I've always understood it right here-a gfci is to protect someone from completing a circuit between unintentional current and a grounded path.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
it is put there so that if said appliance drops into the sink, and maybe energizes the water in the sink, it will protect the person that happens to reach into the sink to retrieve it that may be standing barefoot on a grounded/partially grounded floor or in contact somehow with something that is grounded.

Exactly that.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink can trip a GFCI, regardless of sink bonding, unless the overload trips first.
Regardless of sink bonding, other grounding paths / bare feet on floor / hand on faucet / can trip the GFCI

No, in some ways it cannot and it won't. What if the floor is non conductive/dry ( old tongue and groove floor, block and base foundation under house) and the plumbing fittings/pipe are all plastic?
 

jumper

Senior Member
It doesn't matter how much you write, they ignore it even with good substantiation.

That's a broad absolute statement that I find untrue.

Many members here have written proposals and have gotten them accepted.

I can provide many examples if you wish.

I fail to see how you expect change with no action. Most perplexing I must say.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
That's a broad absolute statement that I find untrue.

Many members here have written proposals and have gotten them accepted.

I can provide many examples if you wish.

I fail to see how you expect change with no action. Most perplexing I must say.

You missed my point...

I know Dennis has submitted proposals that got approved, and I see university students and garden electricians get proposals accepted. However I have yet to see a proposal removing AFCIs from the code get accepted. I have yet to see proposals that actually save cost on installation get accepted. But if it adds cost (like that roof top adder table) you bet it gets accepted.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
As long as the toroidal sees no imbalance , it can maintain energization

~CS~

True. But my point, (and yes Im not the best at making them) I cant see a gas range getting immersed.

However moving the point forward I am going to dig into the range a bit deeper. From the installation manual can I guess this puppy if Frigidaire?
 

jumper

Senior Member
You missed my point...

I know Dennis has submitted proposals that got approved, and I see university students and garden electricians get proposals excepted. However I have yet to see a proposal removing AFCIs from the code get accepted. I have yet to see proposals that actually save cost on installation get accepted. But if it adds cost (like that roof top adder table) you bet it gets accepted.

You really should pay more attention to the process. Ryan Jackson got a proposal deleting the roof adder table removed for the 2017. It just has to survive the comment process.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
You really should pay more attention to the process. Ryan Jackson got a proposal deleting the roof adder table removed for the 2017. It just has to survive the comment process.



Will see if it survives. But this aside it doesn't change hundreds of other proposals that were thrown under the buss or accepted without solid reason (proof) to back them up.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
When I was a kid, I got a nice jolt while touching the electric fry pan and the sink. I guess that sink was well grounded. No GFCI's in my parents kitchen back then.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
When I was a kid, I got a nice jolt while touching the electric fry pan and the sink. I guess that sink was well grounded. No GFCI's in my parents kitchen back then.

Classic effect here of getting caught between something hot and that old bonded galvanized plumbing and cast iron drains.:)
 

jumper

Senior Member
Will see if it survives. But this aside it doesn't change hundreds of other proposals that were thrown under the buss or accepted without solid reason (proof) to back them up.

Regardless of what others have proposed and have either been accepted or rejected, I am asking about you.

Since you seem rather vehement on this and other issues, why do you just stand aside and do nothing.

Complaining here will not change anything. Will it?

One must take reasonable action if one seeks to address a grievance.
 
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